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It is incredibly interesting how the US (and Germany) have put so much into Israel and associated groups they really don't want it to fail (despite the Israeli

by rf15 1y ago

It is incredibly interesting how the US (and Germany) have put so much into Israel and associated groups they really don't want it to fail (despite the Israeli gov doing their damnest to facilitate just that). In my understanding Israel, in the eyes of the US, is a convenient "wedge" in the Arab space that allows for easier power projection in the area, plus they have a healthy amount of zionists close to money and power at home. I imagine the political calculus of if and how to support it is ridiculously difficult.

grafmax 1y ago
And then there’s genocide. Framing support for Israel as purely geopolitical misses what’s going on.
- slt2021 1y ago
  [dead]
- dotancohen 1y ago
  If you really believe that this report indicates that there is a genocide against the people of Gaza, I highly suggest reading this: https://freebeacon.com/israel/the-u-n-genocide-report-against-israel-is-an-assault-on-critical-thinking/ https://freebeacon.com/israel/the-u-n-genocide-report-agains... People whose goal is to understand the situation will read it. People whose goal is to slander the Jews, will ignore it.
Cornbilly 1y ago
The current US administration also derives a lot of its support from evangelical Christians, who have a belief that Israel must exist in order for Jesus to return to earth. Which I’m sure he’d be a fan of all the lying and killing that was done to make that happen…
- brikym 1y ago
  It probably has more to do with soft power like dirt on policy makers than what the plebs think. What do you think Epstein was paid to do?
  - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
    Yes, support started for Israel once Epstein got dirt on them. There is no history of support for Israel prior to that. Yours it totally the most likely/rational take. WTF is going on with this site? You sure have people real comfortable to say this kind of shit here. "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert." --Jean-Paul Sartre
    - grafmax 1y ago
      Concern that Esptein blackmailed politicians isn’t the same as anti-semitism.
      - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
        If you claim that America, which has supported Israel forever and long before Epstein, is supporting Israel because 'Epstein' based on conspiracy theories, everything I said and quoted applies to you. OP brought Epstein into it for a reason, not a mistake. You continued referencing Epstein, not a mistake. But everyone reading this, see how the above post turned the words just slightly from OP they defended and my response, to try and change the discourse/make me defend something different/uncomfortable versus what I originally replied to? Not claiming they did that on purpose, but if they did it would be an example of what Sartre said. Not saying you intentionally misconstrued/misrepresented what I said. Just saying that you happened to do the thing. "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert." --Jean-Paul Sartre Edit: can't post but there is no need to bring Esptein into it at all if it's just about manipulation fears (since the USA has supported Israel long before Epstein). Both of you specifically brought Epstein needlessly into your arguments. I'm done dancing and doing word play like the quote says.
- etc-hosts 1y ago
  They leave out the part where their end time scenario says the Jews will ally with the Anti-Christ, will nearly all be killed in a war with Gentile armies, and then the remaining Jews will all convert to Christianity.
- octopoc 1y ago
  Not all evangelical Christians are like this. There are two main branches: covenantal and dispensational. Dispensational theology is basically the same thing as Christian Zionism, and was invented in the 1800s by John Darby and his followers[1]. Covenantal theology goes way further back and is still popular today. For example Presbyterians are a major covenantal denomination. [1] https://aish.com/unlikely-zionists-the-fascinating-story-of-early-american-zionism/ https://aish.com/unlikely-zionists-the-fascinating-story-of-...
- bko 1y ago
  I don't think you have to be an evangelical Christian to belief that Israel should exist. I think a lot of people not heavily invested in politics or world affairs simply see Israel as more of a Western country aligned with their values and beliefs and want them to exist. > Which I’m sure he’d be a fan of all the lying and killing that was done to make that happen… I'm not sure if Israel ceased to exist there would be less killing and lying. In the first order effect maybe. But if you let a terrorist state control an area, that's obviously not good for global stability. But then again it might be self contained, kind of like a backwards place that exists in its own bubble.
  - amdivia 1y ago
    Why would the terrorists exist to begin with if Israel didn't exist?
    - throwaway290 1y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad same you can ask why Islam conquests would even exist to begin with if everybody was already Muslim. Just that one thing ruins everything eh? same about Christian crusades etc. Religions want to expand. Some more than others.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    If Israel ceased to exist, Hezbollah and other Iranian-backed Shii will come in and slaughter Sunni Hamas. Iran funds Hamas not out of love for Hamas, but out of spite for the Jewish state.
- hereme888 1y ago
  Jesus doesn't need anyone's help or the existence of any country to return to Earth. He does whatever He wants, like it or not.
  - fuzztester 1y ago
    True. And these guys sing whatever they want about Him, like it or not: https://youtu.be/-aPnFTFrg5k https://youtu.be/-aPnFTFrg5k Barclay James Harvest - Hymn. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barclay_James_Harvest https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barclay_James_Harvest The song was very popular in the peak rock music era, and among the youth.
belter 1y ago
It is incredibly interesting, your have US Congressman coming into the US Congress, in an IDF Uniform.
LorenPechtel 1y ago
1) Israel serves as a lightning rod. Much of the Islamist violence is directed at them rather than at the rest of the world. 2) Israel is a nuclear power. You think they'll let themselves be exterminated (and that's what their opponents want) without using their bombs?
- ynx 1y ago
  There is a lot to unpack in this. Your #1 is encoding an unexamined assumption that there is a fixed or at least somewhat inflexible amount of violence to be directed anywhere. It also ignores the lightning generation engine, so to speak, that is the settler colonialism causing unrest across the region. On #2 - Rational people see that they are willing to do everything short of nuclear war when they feel like their century of history is being re-evaluated, and are worried about that (appropriately so). Also, it is an error to assert that nations can be exterminated. That is something evil that happens to people. As organizations of people, institutions and states can fail or be dissolved, but do not disappear permanently so long as people remain to re-form them. I think rational people can argue that the things that are being done in Palestine are unconscionable and that a state that is built to systematically support those acts needs to renew its principles and recommit itself to the idea of "never again".
  - zelphirkalt 1y ago
    "Never again" - Was that ever an idea that Israel committed to? I thought this is only something that Germany and potentially other countries committed to, and Israel saw itself as the victim since forever, so they have no reason to commit to anything, but the victim card, which allowed them to have their own country in the first place. Note though, that Germany's commitment to "never again" got somehow repurposed in exactly letting the thing happen again. Be it because politicians here are not actually educated enough to recognize the thing they should prevent, want to close their eyes to the fact that the once-victim now perpetrator, did it and they did nothing to stop it, they just don't care, the weapon exports are just too good of a business, or whatever. Germany has utterly failed to prevent the thing from happening ever again, and Israel has proven our collective "blind spot". The one entity, that no German politician is allowed to criticize. And still the political climate is such that, most likely, if you criticize Israel in any way, your political career is over and you get branded as an anti-Semite. Oh the irony of it. While it should actually be a huge headline in every newspaper, that Israel has committed genocide against Palestinians and is still committing it as we sit here, the newspapers are awfully quiet. It seems like it is not even worth a headline. Man, the truth hurts. Sucks when your reporting has been so biased all along. Hard to make a 165 degree turn now, I guess (I give them 15 degree, for the occasional reporting on the matter at all.).
stanfordkid 1y ago
This is a common framing by neo-liberal / centrist folks: That the US/West is intelligently and methodologically utilizing Israel for some tactical geopolitical advantage / force projection. It may have played out that way in the past... but at this point Israel is lobbying the US gov't heavily and has bought out most politicians via AIPAC. The myth of Israel being a "bastion" between the west and terrorist Arabs is pretty much a veneer... they are themselves responsible for generating much this terrorism. They bombed the shit out of Lebanon and who would've thunk it Hezbollah popped up.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  > They bombed the shit out of Lebanon and who would've thunk it Hezbollah popped up. You state that as if you are unaware of the cross border attacks originating in Lebanon. How about "Armed groups in Lebanon bomb the shit out of Israeli citizens, and who would've thunk it the Israeli armed forces struck back".
  - scrubs 1y ago
    Having watched Israel deal with their neighbors since the 80s, I am generally inclined to give the benefit of doubt to Israel. However over the last 5 years my attitude has changed. Israel and the Palestinians (focus esp on Palestinian kids) are two screwed over peoples screwing themselves over from a place of stubbornness, reprisal. Who's right depends on how far you wanna go back in tit for tat, which is rhetorically arbitrary. The US stance should be: - Israel will recognize Palestine as a state and Israel stay the hell out their business. Israel will remove their camps from palestine. - Palestine gets the control they want/need and with it commeasurate accountability. Therefore, - US support is withdrawn until two state done Palestine needs to: - provide governance for their citizens without playing footsies with terrorists. It's time for them to put up or shut up. From a US standpoint and as a US citizen I'm pissed at the idiocy we've done to the middle east. I'm also sick and tired of having entanglements from Israel or oil. We've got to get our act together and focus.
    - dotancohen 1y ago
muddi900 1y ago
It is high time that we accept that the people in power are not sensible. That the world is run by a bunch of apocalyptic death cult, living out evangelical fantasies. There is no other reasonable explanation. They have nothing to gain anymore.
viridian 1y ago
> In my understanding Israel, in the eyes of the US, is a convenient "wedge" in the Arab space that allows for easier power projection in the area This doesn't get talked about enough but yes, this was Kissinger's geopolitical view of the near and middle east which we still largely operate on today. The goal being to use the oppressed state of Palestine as a way to separate America's greatest threat (an ascent multi-national Ba'athist movement) from the rest of the middle east by creating a situation that is impossible for the Ba'athists to ignore. The only correction I'd make is that Israel isn't particularly important as an end in this strategy, they are just the means to achieve the goal of Palestinian subjugation. There's a reason the US also pours money into Egypt to enforce their border.

by rf15 1y ago

grafmax 1y ago

And then there’s genocide. Framing support for Israel as purely geopolitical misses what’s going on.

slt2021 1y ago
[dead]
dotancohen 1y ago
If you really believe that this report indicates that there is a genocide against the people of Gaza, I highly suggest reading this: https://freebeacon.com/israel/the-u-n-genocide-report-against-israel-is-an-assault-on-critical-thinking/ https://freebeacon.com/israel/the-u-n-genocide-report-agains... People whose goal is to understand the situation will read it. People whose goal is to slander the Jews, will ignore it.

Cornbilly 1y ago

The current US administration also derives a lot of its support from evangelical Christians, who have a belief that Israel must exist in order for Jesus to return to earth. Which I’m sure he’d be a fan of all the lying and killing that was done to make that happen…

brikym 1y ago
It probably has more to do with soft power like dirt on policy makers than what the plebs think. What do you think Epstein was paid to do?
- _DeadFred_ 1y ago
  Yes, support started for Israel once Epstein got dirt on them. There is no history of support for Israel prior to that. Yours it totally the most likely/rational take. WTF is going on with this site? You sure have people real comfortable to say this kind of shit here. "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert." --Jean-Paul Sartre
  - grafmax 1y ago
    Concern that Esptein blackmailed politicians isn’t the same as anti-semitism.
    - _DeadFred_ 1y ago
      If you claim that America, which has supported Israel forever and long before Epstein, is supporting Israel because 'Epstein' based on conspiracy theories, everything I said and quoted applies to you. OP brought Epstein into it for a reason, not a mistake. You continued referencing Epstein, not a mistake. But everyone reading this, see how the above post turned the words just slightly from OP they defended and my response, to try and change the discourse/make me defend something different/uncomfortable versus what I originally replied to? Not claiming they did that on purpose, but if they did it would be an example of what Sartre said. Not saying you intentionally misconstrued/misrepresented what I said. Just saying that you happened to do the thing. "Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert." --Jean-Paul Sartre Edit: can't post but there is no need to bring Esptein into it at all if it's just about manipulation fears (since the USA has supported Israel long before Epstein). Both of you specifically brought Epstein needlessly into your arguments. I'm done dancing and doing word play like the quote says.
etc-hosts 1y ago
They leave out the part where their end time scenario says the Jews will ally with the Anti-Christ, will nearly all be killed in a war with Gentile armies, and then the remaining Jews will all convert to Christianity.
octopoc 1y ago
Not all evangelical Christians are like this. There are two main branches: covenantal and dispensational. Dispensational theology is basically the same thing as Christian Zionism, and was invented in the 1800s by John Darby and his followers[1]. Covenantal theology goes way further back and is still popular today. For example Presbyterians are a major covenantal denomination. [1] https://aish.com/unlikely-zionists-the-fascinating-story-of-early-american-zionism/ https://aish.com/unlikely-zionists-the-fascinating-story-of-...
bko 1y ago
I don't think you have to be an evangelical Christian to belief that Israel should exist. I think a lot of people not heavily invested in politics or world affairs simply see Israel as more of a Western country aligned with their values and beliefs and want them to exist. > Which I’m sure he’d be a fan of all the lying and killing that was done to make that happen… I'm not sure if Israel ceased to exist there would be less killing and lying. In the first order effect maybe. But if you let a terrorist state control an area, that's obviously not good for global stability. But then again it might be self contained, kind of like a backwards place that exists in its own bubble.
- amdivia 1y ago
  Why would the terrorists exist to begin with if Israel didn't exist?
  - throwaway290 1y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad same you can ask why Islam conquests would even exist to begin with if everybody was already Muslim. Just that one thing ruins everything eh? same about Christian crusades etc. Religions want to expand. Some more than others.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  If Israel ceased to exist, Hezbollah and other Iranian-backed Shii will come in and slaughter Sunni Hamas. Iran funds Hamas not out of love for Hamas, but out of spite for the Jewish state.
hereme888 1y ago
Jesus doesn't need anyone's help or the existence of any country to return to Earth. He does whatever He wants, like it or not.
- fuzztester 1y ago
  True. And these guys sing whatever they want about Him, like it or not: https://youtu.be/-aPnFTFrg5k https://youtu.be/-aPnFTFrg5k Barclay James Harvest - Hymn. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barclay_James_Harvest https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barclay_James_Harvest The song was very popular in the peak rock music era, and among the youth.

belter 1y ago

It is incredibly interesting, your have US Congressman coming into the US Congress, in an IDF Uniform.

LorenPechtel 1y ago

1) Israel serves as a lightning rod. Much of the Islamist violence is directed at them rather than at the rest of the world. 2) Israel is a nuclear power. You think they'll let themselves be exterminated (and that's what their opponents want) without using their bombs?

ynx 1y ago
There is a lot to unpack in this. Your #1 is encoding an unexamined assumption that there is a fixed or at least somewhat inflexible amount of violence to be directed anywhere. It also ignores the lightning generation engine, so to speak, that is the settler colonialism causing unrest across the region. On #2 - Rational people see that they are willing to do everything short of nuclear war when they feel like their century of history is being re-evaluated, and are worried about that (appropriately so). Also, it is an error to assert that nations can be exterminated. That is something evil that happens to people. As organizations of people, institutions and states can fail or be dissolved, but do not disappear permanently so long as people remain to re-form them. I think rational people can argue that the things that are being done in Palestine are unconscionable and that a state that is built to systematically support those acts needs to renew its principles and recommit itself to the idea of "never again".
- zelphirkalt 1y ago
  "Never again" - Was that ever an idea that Israel committed to? I thought this is only something that Germany and potentially other countries committed to, and Israel saw itself as the victim since forever, so they have no reason to commit to anything, but the victim card, which allowed them to have their own country in the first place. Note though, that Germany's commitment to "never again" got somehow repurposed in exactly letting the thing happen again. Be it because politicians here are not actually educated enough to recognize the thing they should prevent, want to close their eyes to the fact that the once-victim now perpetrator, did it and they did nothing to stop it, they just don't care, the weapon exports are just too good of a business, or whatever. Germany has utterly failed to prevent the thing from happening ever again, and Israel has proven our collective "blind spot". The one entity, that no German politician is allowed to criticize. And still the political climate is such that, most likely, if you criticize Israel in any way, your political career is over and you get branded as an anti-Semite. Oh the irony of it. While it should actually be a huge headline in every newspaper, that Israel has committed genocide against Palestinians and is still committing it as we sit here, the newspapers are awfully quiet. It seems like it is not even worth a headline. Man, the truth hurts. Sucks when your reporting has been so biased all along. Hard to make a 165 degree turn now, I guess (I give them 15 degree, for the occasional reporting on the matter at all.).

stanfordkid 1y ago

This is a common framing by neo-liberal / centrist folks: That the US/West is intelligently and methodologically utilizing Israel for some tactical geopolitical advantage / force projection. It may have played out that way in the past... but at this point Israel is lobbying the US gov't heavily and has bought out most politicians via AIPAC. The myth of Israel being a "bastion" between the west and terrorist Arabs is pretty much a veneer... they are themselves responsible for generating much this terrorism. They bombed the shit out of Lebanon and who would've thunk it Hezbollah popped up.

dotancohen 1y ago
> They bombed the shit out of Lebanon and who would've thunk it Hezbollah popped up. You state that as if you are unaware of the cross border attacks originating in Lebanon. How about "Armed groups in Lebanon bomb the shit out of Israeli citizens, and who would've thunk it the Israeli armed forces struck back".
- scrubs 1y ago
  Having watched Israel deal with their neighbors since the 80s, I am generally inclined to give the benefit of doubt to Israel. However over the last 5 years my attitude has changed. Israel and the Palestinians (focus esp on Palestinian kids) are two screwed over peoples screwing themselves over from a place of stubbornness, reprisal. Who's right depends on how far you wanna go back in tit for tat, which is rhetorically arbitrary. The US stance should be: - Israel will recognize Palestine as a state and Israel stay the hell out their business. Israel will remove their camps from palestine. - Palestine gets the control they want/need and with it commeasurate accountability. Therefore, - US support is withdrawn until two state done Palestine needs to: - provide governance for their citizens without playing footsies with terrorists. It's time for them to put up or shut up. From a US standpoint and as a US citizen I'm pissed at the idiocy we've done to the middle east. I'm also sick and tired of having entanglements from Israel or oil. We've got to get our act together and focus.
  - dotancohen 1y ago

muddi900 1y ago

It is high time that we accept that the people in power are not sensible. That the world is run by a bunch of apocalyptic death cult, living out evangelical fantasies. There is no other reasonable explanation. They have nothing to gain anymore.

viridian 1y ago

> In my understanding Israel, in the eyes of the US, is a convenient "wedge" in the Arab space that allows for easier power projection in the area This doesn't get talked about enough but yes, this was Kissinger's geopolitical view of the near and middle east which we still largely operate on today. The goal being to use the oppressed state of Palestine as a way to separate America's greatest threat (an ascent multi-national Ba'athist movement) from the rest of the middle east by creating a situation that is impossible for the Ba'athists to ignore. The only correction I'd make is that Israel isn't particularly important as an end in this strategy, they are just the means to achieve the goal of Palestinian subjugation. There's a reason the US also pours money into Egypt to enforce their border.