4 ms·

Couldn't the Democrats change their positions so that they align with and accommodate popular positions and win elections. I don't think most of the (rather la

Couldn't the Democrats change their positions so that they align with and accommodate popular positions and win elections. I don't think most of the (rather large block) of folks I know who abstained wanted a fully solved problem, they wanted the US to stop funding Israel and that is a position that the Democratic party could have taken if they had chosen to do so.

ThrowMeAway1618 1y ago
[flagged]
- some_guy_nobel 1y ago
  Well, blaming the voter for abstention still conveniently sidesteps blame towards the Dem party for trying to platform Biden again. And now we have you yelling at other people in your party, sewing more division, alienating even more people from your coalition. "How is that working out for you now?"
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - ThrowMeAway1618 1y ago
    >Well, blaming the voter for abstention still conveniently sidesteps blame towards the Dem party for trying to platform Biden again. Non-sequitur much? >And now we have you yelling at other people in your party, sewing more division, alienating even more people from your coalition. "How is that working out for you now?" My party? Which party are you talking about? Don't be shy. Just pointing out second order consequences. As for you, what exactly are you trying to say? It's not clear to me what you hope to contribute to the discussion other than satisfying your imagined superiority to other Americans. Or is just those with an excess of melanin?
  - UmGuys 1y ago
    The GOP actually platformed orange man after he did the coup. That's infinitely worse than being old and hiding it.
- sporkxrocket 1y ago
  The Democrats could simply not fund (and start) a genocide and easily win elections. Don't blame voters. I won't vote for anyone complicit with Israel, D or R. Ask yourself why it's so important to Democrats to support Israel, even when that means losing important elections. We've got big problems on our hands and it doesn't look like we'll be voting our way out of this, Israel has too much control over every aspect of our government.
  - vFunct 1y ago
    Indeed. My gift to Democrats that continue to support Israel is to make sure Republicans win and destroy the country. Genocide is cause for war and destruction of countries. And fortunately, Republicans made it convenient to destroy American society. You see children being burnt alive by racist zealots with your tax dollars, and you CONTINUE to fund it? Yah that's a good way to end your society. The USA is no exception.
  - ThrowMeAway1618 1y ago
    [flagged]
zen928 1y ago
Couldn't far left progressives run their own candidates to win their own elections on issues without siphoning unreciprocated one-way support from the Democrat party? Given the toxic outcomes of supporting purity testers who give ultimatums similar to yours on political issues completely unrelated to the average voters life, theres likely no mainstream party that would align with a platform of virtue signallers that dont intend to create any meaningful policy, so to claim your position is popular is somewhat is a misnomer. Saving people is a popular concept, sure, but it's not easily perceptible to the rest of us that the group taking the strategy to ensure the most suffering for the Palestinians possible in our voting cycle is the one attempting that feat.
- istjohn 1y ago
  "Saving people" is an Orwellian turn of phrase for not supplying the bombs that are dropped on hospitals and refugee camps. Does the commuter "save" the child playing in the street by not willfully plowing her over in his SUV?
- sporkxrocket 1y ago
  Not actively supporting a genocide isn't "virtue signalling". The Democrats will continue to lose until they face that reality. It's actually super gross to present the ethical will of voters like this.
Krssst 1y ago
Too bad the vote led to the current situation where women pointlessly die because of restrictive abortion policy, LGBT people get even more persecuted in the USA with no hope for improvement, protesting the genocide in Palestine is now ground for deportation for non-citizen residents and seems like it would make one an enemy of the state, so you lost all chances of being able to do something. Plus the ideology being force-fed into other countries with American politicians supporting far-right parties in Europe and attempting to strong-arm them into far-right policies (https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2025/03/29/french-companies-shocked-by-letter-from-us-embassy-in-paris-demanding-they-respect-trump-s-anti-diversity-policy_6739640_19.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2025/03/29/french-... ). I guess none of that ever mattered to abstentionists. Well Europe was probably going to fell to the far-right anyway...
- istjohn 1y ago
  Is it the fault of the voters who couldn't stomach the genocide or the Democratic candidates who refused to budge on the issue? It's an argument that has been recapitulated millions of times now, so I'm not sure why we should repeat the exercise here. It does make me despair to have the two parties that together govern our country both be so committed to something so heinous. Can one really be a proud citizen of such a nation?
  - therobots927 1y ago
    We’re not citizens we’re subjects. Their dehumanization of Palestinians will eventually be applied to the poor and underprivileged “citizens” of the US.
UmGuys 1y ago
You misunderstand. GOP breaks all rules and will literally do anything to win because their policy destroys peoples lives. They're the bad cops. Democrats have the slightly less destructive policies and they sort of occupy reality. They're the good cops. Both cops have the same boss.
- mandeepj 1y ago
  > GOP breaks all rules and will literally do anything to win because their policy destroys peoples lives. Not only that, the current president literally promised everything to everyone - just to win! People are too naive (or too innocent) not to notice the lies.
  - decremental 1y ago
    [dead]
  - fakedang 1y ago
    Tbf, that's Athenian democracy at work - politicians would promise the most audacious things just to get elected. One could argue that's even how democracy started in the first place - just so that one guy could rule Athens independently and not as a Spartan puppet. Of course, we haven't adopted the other facet of Athenian democracy which is ostracization by voting.
- vasco 1y ago
  They are both dirty cops more like it.
  - UmGuys 1y ago
    It's assumed all cops are dirty. Good cops are few and far between as bad cops have incentive to get rid of them (so they don't snitch or do other 'good' things like police crime).
Cyph0n 1y ago
This is what people don’t understand, because it isn’t their single issue. If I beg you to reconsider on a very serious issue that is in your power to change stance on, and you not only ignore me but laugh in my face, then why exactly do you still get my vote? Why exactly should I reward you for completely ignoring my protests? Make sure to swap Gaza for your single issue - maybe LGBT rights, or abortion, or gun rights - and then seriously think about how you would deal with it. The Democratic party has basically decided to lean on “but they’re worse” as a political platform while backsliding on multiple issues. They do this because Democrat voters lap that shit up, chant “vote blue no matter who” like members of a cult, and then cry out in astonishment when the Democrats in Congress and in the gov keep sliding towards the right. Also, an addendum: before blaming abstainers and third-party voters, it might be good to ponder on why Democrats preferred risking losing the presidency over making any concessions whatsoever on Palestine. At best, it was a grave miscalculation borne out of hubris. At worst, it was an act of self-sabotage to ensure unconditional support for Israel. Pick your poison :)
- jpster 1y ago
  > “vote blue no matter who” Say centrist Dems, unless it’s Zohran Mamdani. They have learnt nothing. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/16/zohran-mamdani-democrat-endorsements-kathy-hochul https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/16/zohran-mamda...
  - Cyph0n 1y ago
    Indeed..
- underlipton 1y ago
  It's important to also point out that not enabling genocide is one of the most important issues single-issue voters can swing their vote around. That's because genocides both 1) threaten the international rules-based order, shattering the expectation of adherence to any number of human rights-centered protocols and representing crisis that can snowball into larger conflicts, and 2) are often facilitated in part by police actions (civilian detainment, censorship, killings dressed up in lawful rules for the use of force, etc.), which threatens a general spillover of military action into the civilian/domestic status quo. In other words, tolerance of genocide leads to a general shift towards war and despotism, even for people who aren't in the group targeted for genocide. Tolerance of evil builds the scaffolding for further subjugation.
throwawaygmbno 1y ago
Black people have known for decades, you vote for the people that don't actively hate you. Sitting out of the process does absolutely nothing, whether its a protest vote, pretending that politics don't affect you, or just giving up completely. The people who get elected in those situations always 100% ignore you. When people are in office that are at least willing to listen, you then make a lot of noise and put on pressure. You might get ignored mostly, since you are a minority voting block, but you can make incremental gains and even sometimes big wins.
- metalcrow 1y ago
  what do you do if both sides actively hate you? voting for the lesser of the two evils seems to just guarantee evil forever, and they have no reason to listen to you if they know you'll always vote for them.
  - daemoens 1y ago
    You still vote for the lesser evil? Sitting out only benefits the greater evil, not you. I don't know how to make this any clearer.
    - zmgsabst 1y ago
      Because you didn’t address the substance of their point: What you’re arguing for is only single-round optimal, but multi-round suboptimal — much like defection in the Prisoners Dilemma is defeated by trust strategies the Iterated Prisoners Dilemma. Until you show how it’s multi-round optimal, you haven’t addressed their critique.
      - daemoens 1y ago
        I don't believe there is anything else we could realistically do. This stage of the conflict is about to hit the 2 year mark.
      - navane 1y ago
        How is not voting for the lesser evil more multi round optimal? How does that argument look? Right now it looks like you drained the baby with the bathwater. My bigger question: Why would you make the foreign issues dominate your national issues?

ThrowMeAway1618 1y ago

[flagged]

some_guy_nobel 1y ago
Well, blaming the voter for abstention still conveniently sidesteps blame towards the Dem party for trying to platform Biden again. And now we have you yelling at other people in your party, sewing more division, alienating even more people from your coalition. "How is that working out for you now?"
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- ThrowMeAway1618 1y ago
  >Well, blaming the voter for abstention still conveniently sidesteps blame towards the Dem party for trying to platform Biden again. Non-sequitur much? >And now we have you yelling at other people in your party, sewing more division, alienating even more people from your coalition. "How is that working out for you now?" My party? Which party are you talking about? Don't be shy. Just pointing out second order consequences. As for you, what exactly are you trying to say? It's not clear to me what you hope to contribute to the discussion other than satisfying your imagined superiority to other Americans. Or is just those with an excess of melanin?
- UmGuys 1y ago
  The GOP actually platformed orange man after he did the coup. That's infinitely worse than being old and hiding it.
sporkxrocket 1y ago
The Democrats could simply not fund (and start) a genocide and easily win elections. Don't blame voters. I won't vote for anyone complicit with Israel, D or R. Ask yourself why it's so important to Democrats to support Israel, even when that means losing important elections. We've got big problems on our hands and it doesn't look like we'll be voting our way out of this, Israel has too much control over every aspect of our government.
- vFunct 1y ago
  Indeed. My gift to Democrats that continue to support Israel is to make sure Republicans win and destroy the country. Genocide is cause for war and destruction of countries. And fortunately, Republicans made it convenient to destroy American society. You see children being burnt alive by racist zealots with your tax dollars, and you CONTINUE to fund it? Yah that's a good way to end your society. The USA is no exception.
- ThrowMeAway1618 1y ago
  [flagged]

zen928 1y ago

Couldn't far left progressives run their own candidates to win their own elections on issues without siphoning unreciprocated one-way support from the Democrat party? Given the toxic outcomes of supporting purity testers who give ultimatums similar to yours on political issues completely unrelated to the average voters life, theres likely no mainstream party that would align with a platform of virtue signallers that dont intend to create any meaningful policy, so to claim your position is popular is somewhat is a misnomer. Saving people is a popular concept, sure, but it's not easily perceptible to the rest of us that the group taking the strategy to ensure the most suffering for the Palestinians possible in our voting cycle is the one attempting that feat.

istjohn 1y ago
"Saving people" is an Orwellian turn of phrase for not supplying the bombs that are dropped on hospitals and refugee camps. Does the commuter "save" the child playing in the street by not willfully plowing her over in his SUV?
sporkxrocket 1y ago
Not actively supporting a genocide isn't "virtue signalling". The Democrats will continue to lose until they face that reality. It's actually super gross to present the ethical will of voters like this.

Krssst 1y ago

Too bad the vote led to the current situation where women pointlessly die because of restrictive abortion policy, LGBT people get even more persecuted in the USA with no hope for improvement, protesting the genocide in Palestine is now ground for deportation for non-citizen residents and seems like it would make one an enemy of the state, so you lost all chances of being able to do something. Plus the ideology being force-fed into other countries with American politicians supporting far-right parties in Europe and attempting to strong-arm them into far-right policies (https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2025/03/29/french-companies-shocked-by-letter-from-us-embassy-in-paris-demanding-they-respect-trump-s-anti-diversity-policy_6739640_19.html https://www.lemonde.fr/en/economy/article/2025/03/29/french-... ). I guess none of that ever mattered to abstentionists. Well Europe was probably going to fell to the far-right anyway...

istjohn 1y ago
Is it the fault of the voters who couldn't stomach the genocide or the Democratic candidates who refused to budge on the issue? It's an argument that has been recapitulated millions of times now, so I'm not sure why we should repeat the exercise here. It does make me despair to have the two parties that together govern our country both be so committed to something so heinous. Can one really be a proud citizen of such a nation?
- therobots927 1y ago
  We’re not citizens we’re subjects. Their dehumanization of Palestinians will eventually be applied to the poor and underprivileged “citizens” of the US.

UmGuys 1y ago

You misunderstand. GOP breaks all rules and will literally do anything to win because their policy destroys peoples lives. They're the bad cops. Democrats have the slightly less destructive policies and they sort of occupy reality. They're the good cops. Both cops have the same boss.

mandeepj 1y ago
> GOP breaks all rules and will literally do anything to win because their policy destroys peoples lives. Not only that, the current president literally promised everything to everyone - just to win! People are too naive (or too innocent) not to notice the lies.
- decremental 1y ago
  [dead]
- fakedang 1y ago
  Tbf, that's Athenian democracy at work - politicians would promise the most audacious things just to get elected. One could argue that's even how democracy started in the first place - just so that one guy could rule Athens independently and not as a Spartan puppet. Of course, we haven't adopted the other facet of Athenian democracy which is ostracization by voting.
vasco 1y ago
They are both dirty cops more like it.
- UmGuys 1y ago
  It's assumed all cops are dirty. Good cops are few and far between as bad cops have incentive to get rid of them (so they don't snitch or do other 'good' things like police crime).

Cyph0n 1y ago

This is what people don’t understand, because it isn’t their single issue. If I beg you to reconsider on a very serious issue that is in your power to change stance on, and you not only ignore me but laugh in my face, then why exactly do you still get my vote? Why exactly should I reward you for completely ignoring my protests? Make sure to swap Gaza for your single issue - maybe LGBT rights, or abortion, or gun rights - and then seriously think about how you would deal with it. The Democratic party has basically decided to lean on “but they’re worse” as a political platform while backsliding on multiple issues. They do this because Democrat voters lap that shit up, chant “vote blue no matter who” like members of a cult, and then cry out in astonishment when the Democrats in Congress and in the gov keep sliding towards the right. Also, an addendum: before blaming abstainers and third-party voters, it might be good to ponder on why Democrats preferred risking losing the presidency over making any concessions whatsoever on Palestine. At best, it was a grave miscalculation borne out of hubris. At worst, it was an act of self-sabotage to ensure unconditional support for Israel. Pick your poison :)

jpster 1y ago
> “vote blue no matter who” Say centrist Dems, unless it’s Zohran Mamdani. They have learnt nothing. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/16/zohran-mamdani-democrat-endorsements-kathy-hochul https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2025/sep/16/zohran-mamda...
- Cyph0n 1y ago
  Indeed..
underlipton 1y ago
It's important to also point out that not enabling genocide is one of the most important issues single-issue voters can swing their vote around. That's because genocides both 1) threaten the international rules-based order, shattering the expectation of adherence to any number of human rights-centered protocols and representing crisis that can snowball into larger conflicts, and 2) are often facilitated in part by police actions (civilian detainment, censorship, killings dressed up in lawful rules for the use of force, etc.), which threatens a general spillover of military action into the civilian/domestic status quo. In other words, tolerance of genocide leads to a general shift towards war and despotism, even for people who aren't in the group targeted for genocide. Tolerance of evil builds the scaffolding for further subjugation.

throwawaygmbno 1y ago

Black people have known for decades, you vote for the people that don't actively hate you. Sitting out of the process does absolutely nothing, whether its a protest vote, pretending that politics don't affect you, or just giving up completely. The people who get elected in those situations always 100% ignore you. When people are in office that are at least willing to listen, you then make a lot of noise and put on pressure. You might get ignored mostly, since you are a minority voting block, but you can make incremental gains and even sometimes big wins.

metalcrow 1y ago
what do you do if both sides actively hate you? voting for the lesser of the two evils seems to just guarantee evil forever, and they have no reason to listen to you if they know you'll always vote for them.
- daemoens 1y ago
  You still vote for the lesser evil? Sitting out only benefits the greater evil, not you. I don't know how to make this any clearer.
  - zmgsabst 1y ago
    Because you didn’t address the substance of their point: What you’re arguing for is only single-round optimal, but multi-round suboptimal — much like defection in the Prisoners Dilemma is defeated by trust strategies the Iterated Prisoners Dilemma. Until you show how it’s multi-round optimal, you haven’t addressed their critique.
    - daemoens 1y ago
      I don't believe there is anything else we could realistically do. This stage of the conflict is about to hit the 2 year mark.
    - navane 1y ago
      How is not voting for the lesser evil more multi round optimal? How does that argument look? Right now it looks like you drained the baby with the bathwater. My bigger question: Why would you make the foreign issues dominate your national issues?