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> One can support Israel without supporting Israel's current approach. I think you're overthinking this. We're taking about a country committing genocide here.

by thunky 1y ago

> One can support Israel without supporting Israel's current approach. I think you're overthinking this. We're taking about a country committing genocide here. You either support them or you don't.

dotancohen 1y ago
[flagged]
- thunky 1y ago
  It is possible to despise Israel's behavior, and even want their current political standing to change, without being antisemitic or genocidal.
  - dotancohen 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - FireBeyond 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - YZF 1y ago
        No- The Israeli (extreme) right used to say "two banks to the river jordan, one is ours and so is the other" (loose translation). This is very different than "from the river to the sea". Also the Israeli right is willing to generally accept muslims/arabs/Palestinians as equal citizens in that ideological dream. But, how about Israel's declaration of independence? Arguably more representative of the consensus. "WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions." https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/israel.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/israel.asp And guess what, those that listened are now part of the one million Israeli Arab citizenry. I think if we see nuance we can acknowledge it. The worldwide campaign against Israel is devoid of nuance. Some western leaders pay lip service to the idea of removing Hamas and that Israeli hostages should be released but in fact they are taking actions that prolong the war and embolden Hamas. Basically the way the world looks at it is "we told Israel to stop and it doesn't" vs. the way it should be looking at is "What would any other country in the world be doing in these circumstances and what are the conditions Israel is looking for to end the violence and how do we get to those conditions.". There is also orchestrated pressure via social media and media like Al Jazeera that pushes narratives that we're seeing in this thread and is not factual. The cries of genocide started before Israel barely fired a shot after it was attacked and what we're reading today is the same talking points that have been flooding social media for the last two years alongside with an unprecedented flood of war imagery we have not seen in any other conflict because the sole purpose of Hamas is to get as many people killed and injured and attack Israel's image. It's been doing that really well. Being critical of Israel's actions is 100% ok. I am very critical. But what we're seeing is public lynching, not criticism. There is nothing Israel can ever do that is right here. There are no suggestions or proposals for Israel to adjust course that make any sense. Calls for a "cease fire" don't and haven't made any sense because cease fire (which we've had) means Hamas remains in control of Gaza, can re-arm and attack Israel again, and keeps the hostages. Typically this is where the discussion goes to the standard talking points of "didn't start Oct 7th", "Gaza was occupied", "UN blah blah blah", and rhetoric which ignores Hamas and the role of Palestinians in getting where are today. We have maybe 5% of the people in these discussions (on both side - I'll admit that) who have any sense of nuance. We have maybe 1% of people who have enough knowledge on the topic/history etc. We have ideology and propaganda being the dominant forces. So this is why this shouldn't be on Hacker News. There are enough other avenues for online "discussion" (which this is not) on the dividing topics of the day.
        dotancohen 1y ago
        It's actually over 2 million Arabs in Israel.
        thunky 1y ago
        I'm glad to see this topic discussed here. The world should know what's going on even if Israel and it's supporters doesn't want us to see. Israel just bombed residential Qatar the other day, killing and injuring civilians. Israel celebrated. They seem to be completely unrestrained. So even if you're personally ok with Gazans being eliminated, there are other reasons we should be paying attention. Speaking of nuance.
        YZF 1y ago
        Why did Israel bomb Qatar? Any specific target? Please add the nuance - speaking of nuance.
        thunky 1y ago
        > Why did Israel bomb Qatar? A (failed) attempt to kill Hamas dimplomats who were there to discuss a ceasefire proposal. What does that tell you?
    - ngcazz 1y ago
      [flagged]
SilverElfin 1y ago
[flagged]
- pests 1y ago
  > Rocket attacks by the thousands took place. A terrorist attack with rape and mutilation took place. Women were dragged through the streets naked with blood on their groin. Wasn’t sure who you were talking about there. Still not.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - YZF 1y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_... "Attacks began in 2001. Since then (August 2014 data), almost 20,000 rockets have hit southern Israel,[35][36] all but a few thousand of them since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005." ... "Some analysts see the attacks as a shift away from reliance on suicide bombing, which was previously Hamas's main method of attacking Israel, as an adoption of the rocket tactics used by the Lebanese group Hezbollah." But we're going way back, during this ongoing war: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/10/7/live-hezbollah-rockets-hit-israels-haifa-wounding-10-blasts-rock-beirut https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/10/7/live-hezbo... "Updates: Hamas, Hezbollah fire rockets at Israel on October 7 anniversary"
- thunky 1y ago
  > Isn’t the only just response to completely eliminate the offending group, Hamas? Israel is eliminating far more than the "offending group" and they're doing it in a cold blooded, inhumane manner. That's why it's not "self defense". It's shameful.
  - adastra22 1y ago
    Total deaths in Gaza are 1/4 comparable numbers for total deaths in similar conflicts in recent memory, like Fallujah. Not to be flippant, but wars suck, and people die. I would rather that there not be a war, but Israel didn't ask for Oct 7th to happen, and I don't see how any other response would have worked. And just looking at the numbers, the IDF is actually doing far better than any other army in protecting civilians, given the dense urban war fighting conditions. At least as far as the numbers go.
peterashford 1y ago
I think you're oversimplifying. I absolutely oppose the genocide. I also support Israel's right to exist. These are different topics.
- mirzap 1y ago
  Israel was formed on violence, just like this. Even more brutal, if you read the history books. Why do you support country founded on so much hate and violence? First prime ministers of Israel were well known terrorists.
  - peterashford 1y ago
    I don't disagree with you about the history of Israel. I don't believe the state of Israel should have been created in the first place. Not because I'm opposed to the idea of a Jewish homeland, but because I'm opposed to the idea of colonisation (I say this as a pakeha (white) New Zealander who's ancestors colonised NZ). But at this point, Israel exists. People have been born and died there. Its people's homes. Just as I rail against Israel causing forced displacement of Palestinans - a crime against humanity - I will not call for the same crime to be visited on Israelis. Both peoples exist, have rights and deserve to exist in peace. Currently, Palestinians are treated as subhumans by the state of Israel and that has to stop, but none of that means that we shouldn't support Israel's right to exist. The alternative is to visit upon them the very same despicable crimes we criticise them for committing.
    - mirzap 1y ago
      It is the same argument as with apartheid South Africa; I don't buy it. Even today, 80y after WW2, jews are (rightfully) fighting to return their real estate, etc confiscated during the war. Those exchanged multiple owners, but ultimately get returned to their rightful owners. A stolen house is still a stolen house, no matter if generations or two were born there. I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees that Israel can not exist on its own. Even with its nuclear capabilities, it's very small country and vulnerable. What do you think a war with Hamas or Iran would last if they don't receive daily shipments of weapons from allies, mainly the US? It's fully dependent on its Western allies; like any other colony, it will eventually collapse when money finally runs out.

by thunky 1y ago

> One can support Israel without supporting Israel's current approach. I think you're overthinking this. We're taking about a country committing genocide here. You either support them or you don't.

dotancohen 1y ago

[flagged]

thunky 1y ago
It is possible to despise Israel's behavior, and even want their current political standing to change, without being antisemitic or genocidal.
- dotancohen 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - FireBeyond 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - YZF 1y ago
      No- The Israeli (extreme) right used to say "two banks to the river jordan, one is ours and so is the other" (loose translation). This is very different than "from the river to the sea". Also the Israeli right is willing to generally accept muslims/arabs/Palestinians as equal citizens in that ideological dream. But, how about Israel's declaration of independence? Arguably more representative of the consensus. "WE APPEAL - in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions." https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/israel.asp https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/israel.asp And guess what, those that listened are now part of the one million Israeli Arab citizenry. I think if we see nuance we can acknowledge it. The worldwide campaign against Israel is devoid of nuance. Some western leaders pay lip service to the idea of removing Hamas and that Israeli hostages should be released but in fact they are taking actions that prolong the war and embolden Hamas. Basically the way the world looks at it is "we told Israel to stop and it doesn't" vs. the way it should be looking at is "What would any other country in the world be doing in these circumstances and what are the conditions Israel is looking for to end the violence and how do we get to those conditions.". There is also orchestrated pressure via social media and media like Al Jazeera that pushes narratives that we're seeing in this thread and is not factual. The cries of genocide started before Israel barely fired a shot after it was attacked and what we're reading today is the same talking points that have been flooding social media for the last two years alongside with an unprecedented flood of war imagery we have not seen in any other conflict because the sole purpose of Hamas is to get as many people killed and injured and attack Israel's image. It's been doing that really well. Being critical of Israel's actions is 100% ok. I am very critical. But what we're seeing is public lynching, not criticism. There is nothing Israel can ever do that is right here. There are no suggestions or proposals for Israel to adjust course that make any sense. Calls for a "cease fire" don't and haven't made any sense because cease fire (which we've had) means Hamas remains in control of Gaza, can re-arm and attack Israel again, and keeps the hostages. Typically this is where the discussion goes to the standard talking points of "didn't start Oct 7th", "Gaza was occupied", "UN blah blah blah", and rhetoric which ignores Hamas and the role of Palestinians in getting where are today. We have maybe 5% of the people in these discussions (on both side - I'll admit that) who have any sense of nuance. We have maybe 1% of people who have enough knowledge on the topic/history etc. We have ideology and propaganda being the dominant forces. So this is why this shouldn't be on Hacker News. There are enough other avenues for online "discussion" (which this is not) on the dividing topics of the day.
      - dotancohen 1y ago
        It's actually over 2 million Arabs in Israel.
      - thunky 1y ago
        I'm glad to see this topic discussed here. The world should know what's going on even if Israel and it's supporters doesn't want us to see. Israel just bombed residential Qatar the other day, killing and injuring civilians. Israel celebrated. They seem to be completely unrestrained. So even if you're personally ok with Gazans being eliminated, there are other reasons we should be paying attention. Speaking of nuance.
        YZF 1y ago
        Why did Israel bomb Qatar? Any specific target? Please add the nuance - speaking of nuance.
        thunky 1y ago
        > Why did Israel bomb Qatar? A (failed) attempt to kill Hamas dimplomats who were there to discuss a ceasefire proposal. What does that tell you?
  - ngcazz 1y ago
    [flagged]

SilverElfin 1y ago

[flagged]

pests 1y ago
> Rocket attacks by the thousands took place. A terrorist attack with rape and mutilation took place. Women were dragged through the streets naked with blood on their groin. Wasn’t sure who you were talking about there. Still not.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- YZF 1y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_... "Attacks began in 2001. Since then (August 2014 data), almost 20,000 rockets have hit southern Israel,[35][36] all but a few thousand of them since Israel withdrew from the Gaza Strip in August 2005." ... "Some analysts see the attacks as a shift away from reliance on suicide bombing, which was previously Hamas's main method of attacking Israel, as an adoption of the rocket tactics used by the Lebanese group Hezbollah." But we're going way back, during this ongoing war: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/10/7/live-hezbollah-rockets-hit-israels-haifa-wounding-10-blasts-rock-beirut https://www.aljazeera.com/news/liveblog/2024/10/7/live-hezbo... "Updates: Hamas, Hezbollah fire rockets at Israel on October 7 anniversary"
thunky 1y ago
> Isn’t the only just response to completely eliminate the offending group, Hamas? Israel is eliminating far more than the "offending group" and they're doing it in a cold blooded, inhumane manner. That's why it's not "self defense". It's shameful.
- adastra22 1y ago
  Total deaths in Gaza are 1/4 comparable numbers for total deaths in similar conflicts in recent memory, like Fallujah. Not to be flippant, but wars suck, and people die. I would rather that there not be a war, but Israel didn't ask for Oct 7th to happen, and I don't see how any other response would have worked. And just looking at the numbers, the IDF is actually doing far better than any other army in protecting civilians, given the dense urban war fighting conditions. At least as far as the numbers go.

peterashford 1y ago

I think you're oversimplifying. I absolutely oppose the genocide. I also support Israel's right to exist. These are different topics.

mirzap 1y ago
Israel was formed on violence, just like this. Even more brutal, if you read the history books. Why do you support country founded on so much hate and violence? First prime ministers of Israel were well known terrorists.
- peterashford 1y ago
  I don't disagree with you about the history of Israel. I don't believe the state of Israel should have been created in the first place. Not because I'm opposed to the idea of a Jewish homeland, but because I'm opposed to the idea of colonisation (I say this as a pakeha (white) New Zealander who's ancestors colonised NZ). But at this point, Israel exists. People have been born and died there. Its people's homes. Just as I rail against Israel causing forced displacement of Palestinans - a crime against humanity - I will not call for the same crime to be visited on Israelis. Both peoples exist, have rights and deserve to exist in peace. Currently, Palestinians are treated as subhumans by the state of Israel and that has to stop, but none of that means that we shouldn't support Israel's right to exist. The alternative is to visit upon them the very same despicable crimes we criticise them for committing.
  - mirzap 1y ago
    It is the same argument as with apartheid South Africa; I don't buy it. Even today, 80y after WW2, jews are (rightfully) fighting to return their real estate, etc confiscated during the war. Those exchanged multiple owners, but ultimately get returned to their rightful owners. A stolen house is still a stolen house, no matter if generations or two were born there. I'm pretty sure everyone here agrees that Israel can not exist on its own. Even with its nuclear capabilities, it's very small country and vulnerable. What do you think a war with Hamas or Iran would last if they don't receive daily shipments of weapons from allies, mainly the US? It's fully dependent on its Western allies; like any other colony, it will eventually collapse when money finally runs out.