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> proto-fascists in the US and around the world to convert democracies into racist authoritarian states. I think you've said enough to prove my point.

by cbeach 1y ago

toss1 1y ago
The only point being demonstrated here is that you fail to see the explicitly authoritarian actions of the parties Musk supports in the US (Republicans), Germany (AfD), Hungary (Fidesz), etc., and do not understand that in democracies the branches of government (legislative, judicial, executive), and the institutions of society (press, academy, finance, industry, sport, religion, social) are all independent. In contrast authoritarians coerce or corrupt these institutions to serve the executive. If you can't see those authoritarian actions by the parties Musk supports, you are either willfully ignorant or just plain obtuse, or a willing authoritarian proto-fascist. And no, your point is still wrong; there is nothing wrong with changing ones opinion of a public figure when he comes out supporting authoritarianism
- cbeach 1y ago
  > there is nothing wrong with changing ones opinion of a public figure when he comes out supporting authoritarianism You can personally like/dislike whoever you like. But if you personally revile a man, please don't then pretend to have good faith discussions about his technical achievements.
  - toss1 1y ago
    I do not revile him; it is not worth the energy. I am merely deeply disappointed to discover he was not even close to the person I thought he was, either in technological skill or wanting to actually improve humanity. His tech skills turn out to be largely taking credit for work of others and marketing himself as a tech 'genius', and it turns out he is more interested in implementing autocracy than in actually creating an abundant future for humanity. Even with all that wealth, he takes the easy way out. Sad, really
    - cbeach 1y ago
      > he was not even close to the person I thought he was, either in technological skill or wanting to actually improve humanity. He was the chief product architect of Tesla's first production vehicle, and he is the chief engineer of SpaceX. Here's what experts said about him > "Elon and the Propulsion department are leading development of the SpaceX engines, particularly Raptor. I offer my 2 cents to help from time to time" -- Tom Mueller, regarded as one of the foremost spacecraft propulsion experts in the world, who owns many patents for propulsion technologies. > "Elon is brilliant. He’s involved in just about everything. He understands everything. If he asks you a question, you learn very quickly not to go give him a gut reaction. > "He wants answers that get down to the fundamental laws of physics. One thing he understands really well is the physics of the rockets. He understands that like nobody else. The stuff I have seen him do in his head is crazy. He can get in discussions about flying a satellite and whether we can make the right orbit and deliver Dragon at the same time and solve all these equations in real time. It’s amazing to watch the amount of knowledge he has accumulated over the years." -- Kevin Watson (developed the avionics for Falcon 9 and Dragon. He previously managed the Advanced Computer Systems and Technologies Group within the Autonomous Systems Division at NASA's Jet Propulsion laboratory.) > “He’s obviously skilled at all those different functions, but certainly what really drives him and where his passion really is, is his role as CTO,” or chief technology officer. Basically his role as chief designer and chief engineer. That’s the part of the job that really plays to his strengths." > "What's really remarkable to me is the breadth of his knowledge. I mean I've met a lot of super super smart people but they're usually super super smart on one thing and he's able to have conversations with our top engineers about the software, and the most arcane aspects of that and then he'll turn to our manufacturing engineers and have discussions about some really esoteric welding process for some crazy alloy and he'll just go back and forth and his ability to do that across the different technologies that go into rockets cars and everything else he does." --Garrett Reisman, engineer and former NASA astronaut, Professor of Astronautical Engineering at University of Southern California. > "Elon is both the Chief Executive Officer and Chief Technology Officer of SpaceX, so of course he does more than just ‘some very technical work’. He is integrally involved in the actual design and engineering of the rocket, and at least touches every other aspect of the business (but I would say the former takes up much more of his mental real estate). Elon is an engineer at heart, and that’s where and how he works best." -- Josh Boehm, the former Head of Software Quality Assurance at SpaceX. > "Elon is the chief engineer in name and reality." -- Eric Berger, space journalist and Ars Technica's senior space editor. Many more comments here: https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0ta/evidence_that_musk_is_the_chief_engineer_of_spacex/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0ta/eviden...
- cbeach 1y ago
  I agree that it's crucial that in democracy, the press, academy, finance, industry, sport, religion, social should all be independent. That, unfortunately, is simply not the case at the moment. A good example is Biden excluding Tesla from EV-related events and discussions (and making the laughable claim that GM was leading the EV industry). Or the Biden-state Democrat-appointed judge McCormick who intervened in the Musk's X deal, and who cancelled Musk's pay package. Musk believes in libertarian, small-state values. In fact he intervened recently to reduce the size and power of the American state system. That's what libertarians do. That's not what authoritarians do. It's CERTAINLY not what fascists do (one aspect of fascism is large, totalitarian state apparatus)
  - toss1 1y ago
    I'm glad you agree democracy requires independence in the three branches of govt and various branches of society. Which is why Musk's "Libertarian" presentation does not match reality. Musk spent more than a quarter BILLION dollars electing the most authoritarian person ever to occupy the chair of the US president, and now that the president Musk helped elect is actively using the power of the state to take control of corporations and threaten and coerce everyone in academia, journalism, media, and even comedians, Musk is not even posting protests on his own social media network to such massively anti-libertarian actions; he's egging it on. Musk is either the dumbest Libertarian ever to be suckered into putting $250 Billion into an anti-Libertarian candidate, or you are being deceived. As for Biden's relationship with Musk, would you really expect the most pro-union President in the last half-century to actively promote one of the most flagrantly anti-union and worker-hostile corporate executives in recent history? I agree it may not have been the smartest move by Biden to so blatantly shun Musk, but. As for the DOGE efforts, they were most definitely NOT supporting small-state values, they actively cost the govt money, and the primary reason was the most massive data raid ever, taking most of the Social Security Administration, Dept Of Labor, Dept of Educ., and other databases onto uncontrolled servers outside the govt system, attempting a data fusion unauthorized by ANY representatives of the people. Considering his relationship with Peter Theil running Palantir, who is openly authoritarian, believing democracy is incompatible with freedom, I'd put at best even odds the data hasn't been exfiltrated to the most authoritarian technology effort ever in the democratic world. Musk is either an extremely bad libertarian or none at all.

> proto-fascists in the US and around the world to convert democracies into racist authoritarian states. I think you've said enough to prove my point.

by cbeach 1y ago

> proto-fascists in the US and around the world to convert democracies into racist authoritarian states. I think you've said enough to prove my point.

toss1 1y ago

The only point being demonstrated here is that you fail to see the explicitly authoritarian actions of the parties Musk supports in the US (Republicans), Germany (AfD), Hungary (Fidesz), etc., and do not understand that in democracies the branches of government (legislative, judicial, executive), and the institutions of society (press, academy, finance, industry, sport, religion, social) are all independent. In contrast authoritarians coerce or corrupt these institutions to serve the executive. If you can't see those authoritarian actions by the parties Musk supports, you are either willfully ignorant or just plain obtuse, or a willing authoritarian proto-fascist. And no, your point is still wrong; there is nothing wrong with changing ones opinion of a public figure when he comes out supporting authoritarianism

cbeach 1y ago
> there is nothing wrong with changing ones opinion of a public figure when he comes out supporting authoritarianism You can personally like/dislike whoever you like. But if you personally revile a man, please don't then pretend to have good faith discussions about his technical achievements.
- toss1 1y ago
  I do not revile him; it is not worth the energy. I am merely deeply disappointed to discover he was not even close to the person I thought he was, either in technological skill or wanting to actually improve humanity. His tech skills turn out to be largely taking credit for work of others and marketing himself as a tech 'genius', and it turns out he is more interested in implementing autocracy than in actually creating an abundant future for humanity. Even with all that wealth, he takes the easy way out. Sad, really
  - cbeach 1y ago
    > he was not even close to the person I thought he was, either in technological skill or wanting to actually improve humanity. He was the chief product architect of Tesla's first production vehicle, and he is the chief engineer of SpaceX. Here's what experts said about him > "Elon and the Propulsion department are leading development of the SpaceX engines, particularly Raptor. I offer my 2 cents to help from time to time" -- Tom Mueller, regarded as one of the foremost spacecraft propulsion experts in the world, who owns many patents for propulsion technologies. > "Elon is brilliant. He’s involved in just about everything. He understands everything. If he asks you a question, you learn very quickly not to go give him a gut reaction. > "He wants answers that get down to the fundamental laws of physics. One thing he understands really well is the physics of the rockets. He understands that like nobody else. The stuff I have seen him do in his head is crazy. He can get in discussions about flying a satellite and whether we can make the right orbit and deliver Dragon at the same time and solve all these equations in real time. It’s amazing to watch the amount of knowledge he has accumulated over the years." -- Kevin Watson (developed the avionics for Falcon 9 and Dragon. He previously managed the Advanced Computer Systems and Technologies Group within the Autonomous Systems Division at NASA's Jet Propulsion laboratory.) > “He’s obviously skilled at all those different functions, but certainly what really drives him and where his passion really is, is his role as CTO,” or chief technology officer. Basically his role as chief designer and chief engineer. That’s the part of the job that really plays to his strengths." > "What's really remarkable to me is the breadth of his knowledge. I mean I've met a lot of super super smart people but they're usually super super smart on one thing and he's able to have conversations with our top engineers about the software, and the most arcane aspects of that and then he'll turn to our manufacturing engineers and have discussions about some really esoteric welding process for some crazy alloy and he'll just go back and forth and his ability to do that across the different technologies that go into rockets cars and everything else he does." --Garrett Reisman, engineer and former NASA astronaut, Professor of Astronautical Engineering at University of Southern California. > "Elon is both the Chief Executive Officer and Chief Technology Officer of SpaceX, so of course he does more than just ‘some very technical work’. He is integrally involved in the actual design and engineering of the rocket, and at least touches every other aspect of the business (but I would say the former takes up much more of his mental real estate). Elon is an engineer at heart, and that’s where and how he works best." -- Josh Boehm, the former Head of Software Quality Assurance at SpaceX. > "Elon is the chief engineer in name and reality." -- Eric Berger, space journalist and Ars Technica's senior space editor. Many more comments here: https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0ta/evidence_that_musk_is_the_chief_engineer_of_spacex/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0ta/eviden...
cbeach 1y ago
I agree that it's crucial that in democracy, the press, academy, finance, industry, sport, religion, social should all be independent. That, unfortunately, is simply not the case at the moment. A good example is Biden excluding Tesla from EV-related events and discussions (and making the laughable claim that GM was leading the EV industry). Or the Biden-state Democrat-appointed judge McCormick who intervened in the Musk's X deal, and who cancelled Musk's pay package. Musk believes in libertarian, small-state values. In fact he intervened recently to reduce the size and power of the American state system. That's what libertarians do. That's not what authoritarians do. It's CERTAINLY not what fascists do (one aspect of fascism is large, totalitarian state apparatus)
- toss1 1y ago
  I'm glad you agree democracy requires independence in the three branches of govt and various branches of society. Which is why Musk's "Libertarian" presentation does not match reality. Musk spent more than a quarter BILLION dollars electing the most authoritarian person ever to occupy the chair of the US president, and now that the president Musk helped elect is actively using the power of the state to take control of corporations and threaten and coerce everyone in academia, journalism, media, and even comedians, Musk is not even posting protests on his own social media network to such massively anti-libertarian actions; he's egging it on. Musk is either the dumbest Libertarian ever to be suckered into putting $250 Billion into an anti-Libertarian candidate, or you are being deceived. As for Biden's relationship with Musk, would you really expect the most pro-union President in the last half-century to actively promote one of the most flagrantly anti-union and worker-hostile corporate executives in recent history? I agree it may not have been the smartest move by Biden to so blatantly shun Musk, but. As for the DOGE efforts, they were most definitely NOT supporting small-state values, they actively cost the govt money, and the primary reason was the most massive data raid ever, taking most of the Social Security Administration, Dept Of Labor, Dept of Educ., and other databases onto uncontrolled servers outside the govt system, attempting a data fusion unauthorized by ANY representatives of the people. Considering his relationship with Peter Theil running Palantir, who is openly authoritarian, believing democracy is incompatible with freedom, I'd put at best even odds the data hasn't been exfiltrated to the most authoritarian technology effort ever in the democratic world. Musk is either an extremely bad libertarian or none at all.