3 ms·

Doesn't answer the question. Other vaccines, for example DTP, have been shown to cause higher long term mortality rate over those who didn't get it. https://bm

Doesn't answer the question. Other vaccines, for example DTP, have been shown to cause higher long term mortality rate over those who didn't get it. https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/3/e000707 https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/2/3/e000707

JumpCrisscross 1y ago
> Other vaccines, for example DTP, have been shown to cause higher long term mortality rate Sure. This one hasn’t. That said, I frankly think people should be free to vaccinate as they please, and cities, states and private businesses free to include and exclude folks based on vaccination status as they please. (I’m also in favor of letting insurance companies choose if they want to cover diseases someone chose to get by going unvaccinated.)
- analog8374 1y ago
  Agreed. We could decide it over Facebook. Who is allowed to buy food etc. That would be democratic and efficient.
- boxerab 1y ago
  > Sure. This one hasn’t. That is exactly why we need to apply the precautionary principle for new drugs like this one. > That said, I frankly think people should be free to vaccinate as they please Never said they shouldn't be. Just need to be skeptical of organizations like GAVI and their PR, as they have a huge conflict of interest in promoting and profiting from these drugs.
jacobgorm 1y ago
That study is small, observation based and controversial, and the researchers have data from a randomized follow up study that they have been keeping secret for the last 14 years. The coverage of the controversy has mostly been in Danish media, despite these hacks advising the current US administration. See https://www.sensible-med.com/p/the-false-narrative-of-nonspecific https://www.sensible-med.com/p/the-false-narrative-of-nonspe... for a writeup in English.
- boxerab 1y ago
  And yet, this is a valid concern for any new drug - does it have a net positive benefit ? And can you guess why DTP was replaced by DTaP in the developed world, while people like Gates and orgs like GAVI are still promoting it in the third world ?
  - habinero 1y ago
    There's nothing anyone can say to change your mind, and that's incredibly sad.
    - boxerab 1y ago
      facts don't care about your feelings, can you answer the question ?
LorenPechtel 1y ago
Not my field but just looking at that I see variations as big as the signal they are supposedly detecting. Looks an awful lot like noise. And note that it's possible for a vaccine to have a negative survival benefit yet be a good idea--in a population with herd immunity a vaccine provides little benefit to those who receive it so long as enough people receive it to provide the herd immunity. But if too many don't get it the risk from not getting it goes up considerably. Look at what has been happening with measles--measles was basically unheard of, the quacks said not to vaccinate (remember, Wakefield was attacking a specific vaccine that he stood to profit from the controversy, Worm Brain doesn't believe in infectious disease in the first place), now we have people dying of measles.
8note 1y ago
> Setting High-mortality countries in Africa and Asia. this reads like a big grain of salt on the results. from the paper, its more specific that girls who got the DTP vaccine and also not another vaccine afterwards have a higher mortality rate. but also that its wildly different by location

JumpCrisscross 1y ago

> Other vaccines, for example DTP, have been shown to cause higher long term mortality rate Sure. This one hasn’t. That said, I frankly think people should be free to vaccinate as they please, and cities, states and private businesses free to include and exclude folks based on vaccination status as they please. (I’m also in favor of letting insurance companies choose if they want to cover diseases someone chose to get by going unvaccinated.)

analog8374 1y ago
Agreed. We could decide it over Facebook. Who is allowed to buy food etc. That would be democratic and efficient.
boxerab 1y ago
> Sure. This one hasn’t. That is exactly why we need to apply the precautionary principle for new drugs like this one. > That said, I frankly think people should be free to vaccinate as they please Never said they shouldn't be. Just need to be skeptical of organizations like GAVI and their PR, as they have a huge conflict of interest in promoting and profiting from these drugs.

jacobgorm 1y ago

That study is small, observation based and controversial, and the researchers have data from a randomized follow up study that they have been keeping secret for the last 14 years. The coverage of the controversy has mostly been in Danish media, despite these hacks advising the current US administration. See https://www.sensible-med.com/p/the-false-narrative-of-nonspecific https://www.sensible-med.com/p/the-false-narrative-of-nonspe... for a writeup in English.

boxerab 1y ago
And yet, this is a valid concern for any new drug - does it have a net positive benefit ? And can you guess why DTP was replaced by DTaP in the developed world, while people like Gates and orgs like GAVI are still promoting it in the third world ?
- habinero 1y ago
  There's nothing anyone can say to change your mind, and that's incredibly sad.
  - boxerab 1y ago
    facts don't care about your feelings, can you answer the question ?

LorenPechtel 1y ago

Not my field but just looking at that I see variations as big as the signal they are supposedly detecting. Looks an awful lot like noise. And note that it's possible for a vaccine to have a negative survival benefit yet be a good idea--in a population with herd immunity a vaccine provides little benefit to those who receive it so long as enough people receive it to provide the herd immunity. But if too many don't get it the risk from not getting it goes up considerably. Look at what has been happening with measles--measles was basically unheard of, the quacks said not to vaccinate (remember, Wakefield was attacking a specific vaccine that he stood to profit from the controversy, Worm Brain doesn't believe in infectious disease in the first place), now we have people dying of measles.

8note 1y ago

> Setting High-mortality countries in Africa and Asia. this reads like a big grain of salt on the results. from the paper, its more specific that girls who got the DTP vaccine and also not another vaccine afterwards have a higher mortality rate. but also that its wildly different by location