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Ah, so if a Tesla feature is bad it must have been designed by Musk. And if Tesla does something good it was "obviously not from only one person" > I have pos

by cbeach 1y ago

Ah, so if a Tesla feature is bad it must have been designed by Musk. And if Tesla does something good it was "obviously not from only one person" > I have posted similar strong compliments/defenses of Musk in the past, including on here. As have many people, who curiously seemed to change their treatment of Musk around the time of the 2024 election. Funny, that.

toss1 1y ago
No, I did NOT say the safety features were not due to Musk, I stated clearly I believe he was responsible for that safety initiative, just as I thought him responsible for the door handles, but I doubt he had much input in the detailed design of either, and OBVIOUSLY the design of a whole modern automotive crash safety system is more than the work of one person. More importantly, the juxtaposition of the two features makes clear his motivation is primarily a collection of features that Musk thinks will make Musk seem cool, which is a very different thing than trying to make the safest cars in all respects to protect his customers. As for when and why my opinion of Musk changed, again it changed years before 2024, and was cemented when he argued publicly with one of his software engineers and revealed a level of cluelessness showing his previous reputation as some kind of tech genius was a curated sham. You seem to suggest it is wrong of people to reconsider their opinion of Musk around 2024 when he claims to be a "Free Speech Absolutist" yet used his ownership of the largest social media platform and his massive fortune to actively promote proto-fascists in the US and around the world to convert democracies into racist authoritarian states. It is not wrong to shun people who work to introduce intolerance into a society — in fact, the only thing that an open tolerant society can not tolerate if it wants to survive is intolerance itself [0]. While I was not one of them, I am perfectly happy to see people changing their opinion of Musk due to his actions around 2024. If you have not, you are not looking closely enough; please do so. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
cbeach 1y ago
> proto-fascists in the US and around the world to convert democracies into racist authoritarian states. I think you've said enough to prove my point.
- toss1 1y ago
  The only point being demonstrated here is that you fail to see the explicitly authoritarian actions of the parties Musk supports in the US (Republicans), Germany (AfD), Hungary (Fidesz), etc., and do not understand that in democracies the branches of government (legislative, judicial, executive), and the institutions of society (press, academy, finance, industry, sport, religion, social) are all independent. In contrast authoritarians coerce or corrupt these institutions to serve the executive. If you can't see those authoritarian actions by the parties Musk supports, you are either willfully ignorant or just plain obtuse, or a willing authoritarian proto-fascist. And no, your point is still wrong; there is nothing wrong with changing ones opinion of a public figure when he comes out supporting authoritarianism
  - cbeach 1y ago
    > there is nothing wrong with changing ones opinion of a public figure when he comes out supporting authoritarianism You can personally like/dislike whoever you like. But if you personally revile a man, please don't then pretend to have good faith discussions about his technical achievements.
    - toss1 1y ago
      I do not revile him; it is not worth the energy. I am merely deeply disappointed to discover he was not even close to the person I thought he was, either in technological skill or wanting to actually improve humanity. His tech skills turn out to be largely taking credit for work of others and marketing himself as a tech 'genius', and it turns out he is more interested in implementing autocracy than in actually creating an abundant future for humanity. Even with all that wealth, he takes the easy way out. Sad, really
      - cbeach 1y ago
        > he was not even close to the person I thought he was, either in technological skill or wanting to actually improve humanity. He was the chief product architect of Tesla's first production vehicle, and he is the chief engineer of SpaceX. Here's what experts said about him > "Elon and the Propulsion department are leading development of the SpaceX engines, particularly Raptor. I offer my 2 cents to help from time to time" -- Tom Mueller, regarded as one of the foremost spacecraft propulsion experts in the world, who owns many patents for propulsion technologies. > "Elon is brilliant. He’s involved in just about everything. He understands everything. If he asks you a question, you learn very quickly not to go give him a gut reaction. > "He wants answers that get down to the fundamental laws of physics. One thing he understands really well is the physics of the rockets. He understands that like nobody else. The stuff I have seen him do in his head is crazy. He can get in discussions about flying a satellite and whether we can make the right orbit and deliver Dragon at the same time and solve all these equations in real time. It’s amazing to watch the amount of knowledge he has accumulated over the years." -- Kevin Watson (developed the avionics for Falcon 9 and Dragon. He previously managed the Advanced Computer Systems and Technologies Group within the Autonomous Systems Division at NASA's Jet Propulsion laboratory.) > “He’s obviously skilled at all those different functions, but certainly what really drives him and where his passion really is, is his role as CTO,” or chief technology officer. Basically his role as chief designer and chief engineer. That’s the part of the job that really plays to his strengths." > "What's really remarkable to me is the breadth of his knowledge. I mean I've met a lot of super super smart people but they're usually super super smart on one thing and he's able to have conversations with our top engineers about the software, and the most arcane aspects of that and then he'll turn to our manufacturing engineers and have discussions about some really esoteric welding process for some crazy alloy and he'll just go back and forth and his ability to do that across the different technologies that go into rockets cars and everything else he does." --Garrett Reisman, engineer and former NASA astronaut, Professor of Astronautical Engineering at University of Southern California. > "Elon is both the Chief Executive Officer and Chief Technology Officer of SpaceX, so of course he does more than just ‘some very technical work’. He is integrally involved in the actual design and engineering of the rocket, and at least touches every other aspect of the business (but I would say the former takes up much more of his mental real estate). Elon is an engineer at heart, and that’s where and how he works best." -- Josh Boehm, the former Head of Software Quality Assurance at SpaceX. > "Elon is the chief engineer in name and reality." -- Eric Berger, space journalist and Ars Technica's senior space editor. Many more comments here: https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0ta/evidence_that_musk_is_the_chief_engineer_of_spacex/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0ta/eviden...

by cbeach 1y ago

toss1 1y ago

No, I did NOT say the safety features were not due to Musk, I stated clearly I believe he was responsible for that safety initiative, just as I thought him responsible for the door handles, but I doubt he had much input in the detailed design of either, and OBVIOUSLY the design of a whole modern automotive crash safety system is more than the work of one person. More importantly, the juxtaposition of the two features makes clear his motivation is primarily a collection of features that Musk thinks will make Musk seem cool, which is a very different thing than trying to make the safest cars in all respects to protect his customers. As for when and why my opinion of Musk changed, again it changed years before 2024, and was cemented when he argued publicly with one of his software engineers and revealed a level of cluelessness showing his previous reputation as some kind of tech genius was a curated sham. You seem to suggest it is wrong of people to reconsider their opinion of Musk around 2024 when he claims to be a "Free Speech Absolutist" yet used his ownership of the largest social media platform and his massive fortune to actively promote proto-fascists in the US and around the world to convert democracies into racist authoritarian states. It is not wrong to shun people who work to introduce intolerance into a society — in fact, the only thing that an open tolerant society can not tolerate if it wants to survive is intolerance itself [0]. While I was not one of them, I am perfectly happy to see people changing their opinion of Musk due to his actions around 2024. If you have not, you are not looking closely enough; please do so. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

cbeach 1y ago

> proto-fascists in the US and around the world to convert democracies into racist authoritarian states. I think you've said enough to prove my point.

toss1 1y ago
The only point being demonstrated here is that you fail to see the explicitly authoritarian actions of the parties Musk supports in the US (Republicans), Germany (AfD), Hungary (Fidesz), etc., and do not understand that in democracies the branches of government (legislative, judicial, executive), and the institutions of society (press, academy, finance, industry, sport, religion, social) are all independent. In contrast authoritarians coerce or corrupt these institutions to serve the executive. If you can't see those authoritarian actions by the parties Musk supports, you are either willfully ignorant or just plain obtuse, or a willing authoritarian proto-fascist. And no, your point is still wrong; there is nothing wrong with changing ones opinion of a public figure when he comes out supporting authoritarianism
- cbeach 1y ago
  > there is nothing wrong with changing ones opinion of a public figure when he comes out supporting authoritarianism You can personally like/dislike whoever you like. But if you personally revile a man, please don't then pretend to have good faith discussions about his technical achievements.
  - toss1 1y ago
    I do not revile him; it is not worth the energy. I am merely deeply disappointed to discover he was not even close to the person I thought he was, either in technological skill or wanting to actually improve humanity. His tech skills turn out to be largely taking credit for work of others and marketing himself as a tech 'genius', and it turns out he is more interested in implementing autocracy than in actually creating an abundant future for humanity. Even with all that wealth, he takes the easy way out. Sad, really
    - cbeach 1y ago
      > he was not even close to the person I thought he was, either in technological skill or wanting to actually improve humanity. He was the chief product architect of Tesla's first production vehicle, and he is the chief engineer of SpaceX. Here's what experts said about him > "Elon and the Propulsion department are leading development of the SpaceX engines, particularly Raptor. I offer my 2 cents to help from time to time" -- Tom Mueller, regarded as one of the foremost spacecraft propulsion experts in the world, who owns many patents for propulsion technologies. > "Elon is brilliant. He’s involved in just about everything. He understands everything. If he asks you a question, you learn very quickly not to go give him a gut reaction. > "He wants answers that get down to the fundamental laws of physics. One thing he understands really well is the physics of the rockets. He understands that like nobody else. The stuff I have seen him do in his head is crazy. He can get in discussions about flying a satellite and whether we can make the right orbit and deliver Dragon at the same time and solve all these equations in real time. It’s amazing to watch the amount of knowledge he has accumulated over the years." -- Kevin Watson (developed the avionics for Falcon 9 and Dragon. He previously managed the Advanced Computer Systems and Technologies Group within the Autonomous Systems Division at NASA's Jet Propulsion laboratory.) > “He’s obviously skilled at all those different functions, but certainly what really drives him and where his passion really is, is his role as CTO,” or chief technology officer. Basically his role as chief designer and chief engineer. That’s the part of the job that really plays to his strengths." > "What's really remarkable to me is the breadth of his knowledge. I mean I've met a lot of super super smart people but they're usually super super smart on one thing and he's able to have conversations with our top engineers about the software, and the most arcane aspects of that and then he'll turn to our manufacturing engineers and have discussions about some really esoteric welding process for some crazy alloy and he'll just go back and forth and his ability to do that across the different technologies that go into rockets cars and everything else he does." --Garrett Reisman, engineer and former NASA astronaut, Professor of Astronautical Engineering at University of Southern California. > "Elon is both the Chief Executive Officer and Chief Technology Officer of SpaceX, so of course he does more than just ‘some very technical work’. He is integrally involved in the actual design and engineering of the rocket, and at least touches every other aspect of the business (but I would say the former takes up much more of his mental real estate). Elon is an engineer at heart, and that’s where and how he works best." -- Josh Boehm, the former Head of Software Quality Assurance at SpaceX. > "Elon is the chief engineer in name and reality." -- Eric Berger, space journalist and Ars Technica's senior space editor. Many more comments here: https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0ta/evidence_that_musk_is_the_chief_engineer_of_spacex/ https://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceXLounge/comments/k1e0ta/eviden...