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Methodologically, why would you have one cutoff vs a different cutoff per group (as there are different qualifying times per group)? I am not a marathoner, but

by abeppu 1y ago

Methodologically, why would you have one cutoff vs a different cutoff per group (as there are different qualifying times per group)? I am not a marathoner, but I'd imagine that a 6 min decrease from the stated qualifying time cuts out a larger proportion of younger runners (i.e. decreasing the threshold from 2h55 to 2h49 for men 18-34 seems like a much sharper cut than decreasing 4h20 to 4h14 for women 60-64). I would have thought you'd want to pick the delta by looking at the distribution within each gender x age pool.

steadyelk 1y ago
It could be intentional. For a lot of folks, running the Boston Marathon is a dream, so maybe the BAA wants to make that dream just slightly more attainable the older you get.
- poutrathor 1y ago
  As always it's probably because maths still is too hard for most people and keeping the rule simple won over fairness.
  - votepaunchy 1y ago
    Ironman just switched to age-grading, which is just as simple and already used by many runner training plans and race calculators. https://www.ironman.com/news/age-group-qualification-system https://www.ironman.com/news/age-group-qualification-system
rconti 1y ago
Yeah, doing it by flat time delta rather than percent delta seems fundamentally flawed, but of course it makes it easier for the average person to understand. I also don't understand what the motives are behind how the age/gender buckets are calculated in the first place. I'm not sure if it's public or not. Are they: * Trying to calculate based on an nth percentile finishing time across each bucket? * Trying to ensure roughly equal percentages of applicants from each bucket get accepted? * Something else?
- k2enemy 1y ago
  Making sure they can accept a lot of high disposable income 40+ runners that will buy a lot of merch. The time cutoffs start to get much easier after 40.
  - Guillaume86 1y ago
    Doesn't look true, I inputed the times in an age grading calculator and 39 cutoff time was easier than 44, even if it's not very accurate I doubt it's "much easier".
- scott_w 1y ago
  It’s a common problem. Time trialling uses Age Adjusted Time for events which uses a flat time reduction based on age. One guy pointed out the absurdity that he’s still extremely fast in his 50s, so his AAT end up impossibly fast, winning him a lot of events as a result!
adrianmonk 1y ago
They can also improve that balance by adjusting the qualifying times from year to year, and they do. They could even make a projection of future cutoff times and take that into account when setting the baseline qualifying times. In other words, be a little more generous with the 18-34 group initially knowing that you'll like penalize them more with your one-size-fits-all cutoff. I'm not sure if they do that. Also, the current qualifying times are all multiples of 5 minutes. If they really want to improve balance between groups, the low-hanging fruit is to make those more granular.

by abeppu 1y ago

steadyelk 1y ago

It could be intentional. For a lot of folks, running the Boston Marathon is a dream, so maybe the BAA wants to make that dream just slightly more attainable the older you get.

poutrathor 1y ago
As always it's probably because maths still is too hard for most people and keeping the rule simple won over fairness.
- votepaunchy 1y ago
  Ironman just switched to age-grading, which is just as simple and already used by many runner training plans and race calculators. https://www.ironman.com/news/age-group-qualification-system https://www.ironman.com/news/age-group-qualification-system

rconti 1y ago

Yeah, doing it by flat time delta rather than percent delta seems fundamentally flawed, but of course it makes it easier for the average person to understand. I also don't understand what the motives are behind how the age/gender buckets are calculated in the first place. I'm not sure if it's public or not. Are they: * Trying to calculate based on an nth percentile finishing time across each bucket? * Trying to ensure roughly equal percentages of applicants from each bucket get accepted? * Something else?

k2enemy 1y ago
Making sure they can accept a lot of high disposable income 40+ runners that will buy a lot of merch. The time cutoffs start to get much easier after 40.
- Guillaume86 1y ago
  Doesn't look true, I inputed the times in an age grading calculator and 39 cutoff time was easier than 44, even if it's not very accurate I doubt it's "much easier".
scott_w 1y ago
It’s a common problem. Time trialling uses Age Adjusted Time for events which uses a flat time reduction based on age. One guy pointed out the absurdity that he’s still extremely fast in his 50s, so his AAT end up impossibly fast, winning him a lot of events as a result!

adrianmonk 1y ago

They can also improve that balance by adjusting the qualifying times from year to year, and they do. They could even make a projection of future cutoff times and take that into account when setting the baseline qualifying times. In other words, be a little more generous with the 18-34 group initially knowing that you'll like penalize them more with your one-size-fits-all cutoff. I'm not sure if they do that. Also, the current qualifying times are all multiples of 5 minutes. If they really want to improve balance between groups, the low-hanging fruit is to make those more granular.