4 ms·

It's sad that the best Linux laptop right now arguably is a M4 Mac virtualizing Linux.

by bombcar 1y ago

treesknees 1y ago
Why not run it natively with Asahi Linux?
- Everdred2dx 1y ago
  Well limiting to specifically OP's example (M4 Mac), Asahi doesn't support it yet. :(
- crossroadsguy 1y ago
  Is Asahi installed side by side on a mac? You pick it at boot? And how “install and just use” it is?
  - neobrain 1y ago
    > Is Asahi installed side by side on a mac? Yes, the installer automatically (and reliably) resizes partitions for you. A minimum of about 70 GB for macOS is needed (anything lower is still possible but unsupported). > You pick it at boot? There's a default choice that will boot. > And how “install and just use” it is? Probably one of the smoothest Linux installs I've had in 10 years or so, since you just run the installer from macOS instead of flashing ISO files to an USB drive.
    - awesome_dude 1y ago
      Just, FTR, you can also tell the Mac OS to reboot to Asahi, and you can tell Asahi (via CLI) to reboot to Mac OS https://www.reddit.com/r/AsahiLinux/comments/1c2yasr/can_i_boot_to_asahi_without_holding_power_button/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AsahiLinux/comments/1c2yasr/can_i_b... When I was first getting my feet wet with Asahi I was using these methods a lot.
      - crossroadsguy 1y ago
        Thank you. This is helpful. I learned that my option, for a well tested and functioning distro is pretty much Fedora Remix. So I guess I won't be able to use Elementary OS sadly. I hope Fedora is or can be made to look and behave like Elementary.
    - crossroadsguy 1y ago
      Thank you. I will try it. Just one more question: is my mac hardware (and encrypted data) still protected the way it is protected before installing Asahi on it? Like device/theft protection etc. My limited exploration/search on this topic kinda says in some way Asahi Linux lives inside the bounds of macOS (even all the data is available/readable in macOS which is fine by me). Is that so?
      - neobrain 1y ago
        > Just one more question: is my mac hardware (and encrypted data) still protected the way it is protected before installing Asahi on it? Like device/theft protection etc. Apple devices probably have the strongest security model offered by any otherwise open consumer device these days, so yeah: Installing Asahi won't degrade security of the macOS installation. Note that the Linux install itself will have weaker protection, since e.g. the fingerprint sensor is not yet supported. I also think disk encryption would be much harder to set up due to Apple's boot process (if it's even feasible at all currently).
- ohdeargodno 1y ago
  Asahi is only supporting M1, and partly M2 I believe. M3 was enough of a change that there are no drivers for it.
  - awesome_dude 1y ago
    I run asahi on my M2 mini as the primary OS. There's a bit of a pain in that I could only get Brave to run Netflix, but all that meant was that I switched to using Brave for all of my browsing. There's no official Tor build for it, but there is an unofficial one (that I do not use) The only real pain I have with it is that Facebook's javascript for its reels chews up RAM something horrible, which freezes the OS whilst being processed, and often causes me to reboot it
- Wowfunhappy 1y ago
  Asahi Linux doesn't support the M3 or M4. That said, I'd be curious why OP doesn't consider Asahi on M2 to be a good option. AFAIK the only thing missing at this point is Thunderbolt and USB-C display output (HDMI out works fine).
  - zenmac 1y ago
    There are a few draw backs. dnf for arm linux doesn't support Tor Browser yet!! Power saving was quite bad when I tried a few month back. When on sleep mode, it drains more battery than on MacOS sleep mode. There are a few other compile/transpile bugs here and there.... but I'm rooting for the it!!! Hopefully they can get sorted out soon.
- truncate 1y ago
  IIRC, there bunch of random things that still don't work -- no USB-C output, webcam, audio and if I've to guess suspend/resume is probably not rock solid either. The only benefit is that you get to use Linux, but then you may lose on actually getting work done without worrying about these issues. The new UI is inferior, but can still get things done.
  - Wowfunhappy 1y ago
    Webcam and audio both work now. I can't speak to how solid suspend/resume is because I haven't actually used it--I just follow the project--but I wouldn't necessarily assume it's flaky.
  - neobrain 1y ago
    This information is very dated. Webcam/audio work fine nowadays, and suspend/resume have never had issues that I recall. IME the feature support page is very accurate (no hidden gotchas like "technically it works but it breaks after sleep"). USB-C output is indeed not working but actively making progress (so actively that some of the related patches have been sent to the kernel mailing list and merged this very week).
    - truncate 1y ago
      That’s exciting! USBC was definitely a dealbreaker for me but it’s great to see it’s no longer the case.
    - truncate 1y ago
      Wouldn’t call it “very” dated. Depending on your model seems like they were ready to cross off this March. https://liliputing.com/asahi-linux-adds-microphone-support-for-macbooks-with-apple-silicon/ https://liliputing.com/asahi-linux-adds-microphone-support-f...
    - chipsrafferty 1y ago
      I purchased a $3400 Linux laptop with excellent hardware and I've experienced the following issues: Sound output is garbage. Webcam barely works or straight up doesn't work on some apps. The built in microphone doesn't work with common apps like Google hangouts and Zoom. All on Ubuntu (latest). Certain input ports (like USB C) don't work for certain apps even though they work fine for other Linux users and they work on my other computers. Oh, and when I was on PopOS, the entire system froze and crashed nonstop (sometimes I would go over a day without a freeze, sometimes it would happen within 30 seconds of booting). This stopped happening for a while after I did a complete system reset, but then it started happening again. The team was completely unable to figure out the issue despite it being fairly widespread. No hardware was damaged or corrupted as they claimed must be the case. Basically, in my experience, Linux has a ton of issues still.
coconut08 1y ago
this is a psychotic question but have you actually tried doing that? like using a macbook as a vessel for running linux under parallels as a primary use?
- prmoustache 1y ago
  I guess if you autostart the linux VM upon booting this should work. I am doing actually the same with BeOS but using a Linux as the hardware compatibility layer. Linux distro is configured to autologin to sway which starts a VM and run it fullscreen. The guest VM is configured to use all the laptop ram leaving only 1GB for the host. In the second virtual desktop the pulseaudio volume control, wifi and bluetooth management tools are automatically open so I can easily plug a BT headphone, switch network. The linux distro automatically shutdown if I shutdown the VM. I am using swaylock to lock the screen when I am away.
- qwertypig250 1y ago
  I went down this rabbit hole but with UTM, didn't get far though. Anything GPU-accelerated will struggle, or straight up not work. That includes GPU-accelerated terminals and code editors. You will also have conflicts with touchpad gestures, hot corners, and keybindings. It's not a good way to go imo.
- bombcar 1y ago
  I haven't done Linux (I have servers and such and "got used" to macOS enough for my needs) but I did in ages past do something very similar with Windows on Parallels on Intel Macs.
- derefnull 1y ago
  I have, and found the linux software ecosystem for arm lagged that of amd64.
lylo 1y ago
Framework?
- geerlingguy 1y ago
  Framework is nice but it's far from Apple's laptop hardware quality. The biggest draw of the Framework is its modularity.
  - dsego 1y ago
    Based on my framework 13 and macbook m1, I think the only downgrade are the speakers and the trackpad. The keyboard is actually an upgrade, the 2.8k screen has a better size ratio but the contrast is not as good, I'd say it's decent. The trackpad performs well but it's the old hinged design and not haptic. Being able to service my own laptop, replace parts and max out the storage for less money than a mid-spec macbook is just unbelievable.
    - noisy_boy 1y ago
      I wonder if providing a unibody aluminium "premium" option might help Framework capture the "build-quality" crowd. That combined with the improved keyboard may turn out to be a compelling offering. I think the main remaining challenge will be the display and trackpad.
- herewulf 1y ago
  I wanted to post this myself because I swear by my Framework 13 and it's my workhorse. However, it doesn't hold a candle to my wife's M3 Pro on a number of metrics mentioned here such as: Battery life, screen quality, and overall performance. The Framework (Intel 12th Gen) also has the added benefit of heating the house, particularly with graphics "heavy" workloads (lots of windows open in GNOME Mutter, VMs, etc).

It's sad that the best Linux laptop right now arguably is a M4 Mac virtualizing Linux.

treesknees 1y ago

Why not run it natively with Asahi Linux?

Everdred2dx 1y ago
Well limiting to specifically OP's example (M4 Mac), Asahi doesn't support it yet. :(
crossroadsguy 1y ago
Is Asahi installed side by side on a mac? You pick it at boot? And how “install and just use” it is?
- neobrain 1y ago
  > Is Asahi installed side by side on a mac? Yes, the installer automatically (and reliably) resizes partitions for you. A minimum of about 70 GB for macOS is needed (anything lower is still possible but unsupported). > You pick it at boot? There's a default choice that will boot. > And how “install and just use” it is? Probably one of the smoothest Linux installs I've had in 10 years or so, since you just run the installer from macOS instead of flashing ISO files to an USB drive.
  - awesome_dude 1y ago
    Just, FTR, you can also tell the Mac OS to reboot to Asahi, and you can tell Asahi (via CLI) to reboot to Mac OS https://www.reddit.com/r/AsahiLinux/comments/1c2yasr/can_i_boot_to_asahi_without_holding_power_button/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AsahiLinux/comments/1c2yasr/can_i_b... When I was first getting my feet wet with Asahi I was using these methods a lot.
    - crossroadsguy 1y ago
      Thank you. This is helpful. I learned that my option, for a well tested and functioning distro is pretty much Fedora Remix. So I guess I won't be able to use Elementary OS sadly. I hope Fedora is or can be made to look and behave like Elementary.
  - crossroadsguy 1y ago
    Thank you. I will try it. Just one more question: is my mac hardware (and encrypted data) still protected the way it is protected before installing Asahi on it? Like device/theft protection etc. My limited exploration/search on this topic kinda says in some way Asahi Linux lives inside the bounds of macOS (even all the data is available/readable in macOS which is fine by me). Is that so?
    - neobrain 1y ago
      > Just one more question: is my mac hardware (and encrypted data) still protected the way it is protected before installing Asahi on it? Like device/theft protection etc. Apple devices probably have the strongest security model offered by any otherwise open consumer device these days, so yeah: Installing Asahi won't degrade security of the macOS installation. Note that the Linux install itself will have weaker protection, since e.g. the fingerprint sensor is not yet supported. I also think disk encryption would be much harder to set up due to Apple's boot process (if it's even feasible at all currently).
ohdeargodno 1y ago
Asahi is only supporting M1, and partly M2 I believe. M3 was enough of a change that there are no drivers for it.
- awesome_dude 1y ago
  I run asahi on my M2 mini as the primary OS. There's a bit of a pain in that I could only get Brave to run Netflix, but all that meant was that I switched to using Brave for all of my browsing. There's no official Tor build for it, but there is an unofficial one (that I do not use) The only real pain I have with it is that Facebook's javascript for its reels chews up RAM something horrible, which freezes the OS whilst being processed, and often causes me to reboot it
Wowfunhappy 1y ago
Asahi Linux doesn't support the M3 or M4. That said, I'd be curious why OP doesn't consider Asahi on M2 to be a good option. AFAIK the only thing missing at this point is Thunderbolt and USB-C display output (HDMI out works fine).
- zenmac 1y ago
  There are a few draw backs. dnf for arm linux doesn't support Tor Browser yet!! Power saving was quite bad when I tried a few month back. When on sleep mode, it drains more battery than on MacOS sleep mode. There are a few other compile/transpile bugs here and there.... but I'm rooting for the it!!! Hopefully they can get sorted out soon.
truncate 1y ago
IIRC, there bunch of random things that still don't work -- no USB-C output, webcam, audio and if I've to guess suspend/resume is probably not rock solid either. The only benefit is that you get to use Linux, but then you may lose on actually getting work done without worrying about these issues. The new UI is inferior, but can still get things done.
- Wowfunhappy 1y ago
  Webcam and audio both work now. I can't speak to how solid suspend/resume is because I haven't actually used it--I just follow the project--but I wouldn't necessarily assume it's flaky.
- neobrain 1y ago
  This information is very dated. Webcam/audio work fine nowadays, and suspend/resume have never had issues that I recall. IME the feature support page is very accurate (no hidden gotchas like "technically it works but it breaks after sleep"). USB-C output is indeed not working but actively making progress (so actively that some of the related patches have been sent to the kernel mailing list and merged this very week).
  - truncate 1y ago
    That’s exciting! USBC was definitely a dealbreaker for me but it’s great to see it’s no longer the case.
  - truncate 1y ago
    Wouldn’t call it “very” dated. Depending on your model seems like they were ready to cross off this March. https://liliputing.com/asahi-linux-adds-microphone-support-for-macbooks-with-apple-silicon/ https://liliputing.com/asahi-linux-adds-microphone-support-f...
  - chipsrafferty 1y ago
    I purchased a $3400 Linux laptop with excellent hardware and I've experienced the following issues: Sound output is garbage. Webcam barely works or straight up doesn't work on some apps. The built in microphone doesn't work with common apps like Google hangouts and Zoom. All on Ubuntu (latest). Certain input ports (like USB C) don't work for certain apps even though they work fine for other Linux users and they work on my other computers. Oh, and when I was on PopOS, the entire system froze and crashed nonstop (sometimes I would go over a day without a freeze, sometimes it would happen within 30 seconds of booting). This stopped happening for a while after I did a complete system reset, but then it started happening again. The team was completely unable to figure out the issue despite it being fairly widespread. No hardware was damaged or corrupted as they claimed must be the case. Basically, in my experience, Linux has a ton of issues still.

coconut08 1y ago

this is a psychotic question but have you actually tried doing that? like using a macbook as a vessel for running linux under parallels as a primary use?

prmoustache 1y ago
I guess if you autostart the linux VM upon booting this should work. I am doing actually the same with BeOS but using a Linux as the hardware compatibility layer. Linux distro is configured to autologin to sway which starts a VM and run it fullscreen. The guest VM is configured to use all the laptop ram leaving only 1GB for the host. In the second virtual desktop the pulseaudio volume control, wifi and bluetooth management tools are automatically open so I can easily plug a BT headphone, switch network. The linux distro automatically shutdown if I shutdown the VM. I am using swaylock to lock the screen when I am away.
qwertypig250 1y ago
I went down this rabbit hole but with UTM, didn't get far though. Anything GPU-accelerated will struggle, or straight up not work. That includes GPU-accelerated terminals and code editors. You will also have conflicts with touchpad gestures, hot corners, and keybindings. It's not a good way to go imo.
bombcar 1y ago
I haven't done Linux (I have servers and such and "got used" to macOS enough for my needs) but I did in ages past do something very similar with Windows on Parallels on Intel Macs.
derefnull 1y ago
I have, and found the linux software ecosystem for arm lagged that of amd64.

lylo 1y ago

Framework?

geerlingguy 1y ago
Framework is nice but it's far from Apple's laptop hardware quality. The biggest draw of the Framework is its modularity.
- dsego 1y ago
  Based on my framework 13 and macbook m1, I think the only downgrade are the speakers and the trackpad. The keyboard is actually an upgrade, the 2.8k screen has a better size ratio but the contrast is not as good, I'd say it's decent. The trackpad performs well but it's the old hinged design and not haptic. Being able to service my own laptop, replace parts and max out the storage for less money than a mid-spec macbook is just unbelievable.
  - noisy_boy 1y ago
    I wonder if providing a unibody aluminium "premium" option might help Framework capture the "build-quality" crowd. That combined with the improved keyboard may turn out to be a compelling offering. I think the main remaining challenge will be the display and trackpad.
herewulf 1y ago
I wanted to post this myself because I swear by my Framework 13 and it's my workhorse. However, it doesn't hold a candle to my wife's M3 Pro on a number of metrics mentioned here such as: Battery life, screen quality, and overall performance. The Framework (Intel 12th Gen) also has the added benefit of heating the house, particularly with graphics "heavy" workloads (lots of windows open in GNOME Mutter, VMs, etc).