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>The fact that selling such a thing is profitable means that we lack regulations somewhere. It's the exact opposite. Tobacco is so heavily regulated and taxed

>The fact that selling such a thing is profitable means that we lack regulations somewhere. It's the exact opposite. Tobacco is so heavily regulated and taxed that these become profitable. If cigarettes were 3-4$ a pack (which they would be without sin taxes and regulatory overhead), the vape market would come down as well and there's no way these could be profitable. As it is, they retail around $20 and contain the same nicotine as multiple $10 packs of cigarettes.

rebolek 1y ago
The regulation was written in time when there were no such devices. Are they "healthier" (less damaging) for the user? If yes, let's tax them lower. Are they less damaging for whole population? Considering the e-waste, I guess not, but it's not up to me to decide. If they aren't, they shouldn't be taxed higher that cigs, if yes, let's change the regulation.
- lyu07282 1y ago
  Because they contain so much more nicotine they are way more addicting, way better for the lungs than smoking but still bad for cardiovascular health. Disposables should be illegal for environmental protection reasons, that's a bit unrelated though since these companies can very easily switch to reusable/pod-systems. We want people to vape rather than smoke tobacco, obviously, it's not a zero-sum issue.
dpc050505 1y ago
You can get 10 packs for 20$CAD on reservations in Canada, and that's for decent cigarettes in packaging, the really cheap ones in ziploc bags go even cheaper. 3-4$ a pack is still a decent markup.
palata 1y ago
> It's the exact opposite. Tobacco is so heavily regulated and taxed that these become profitable. It's not the opposite at all. Tobacco should disappear just as well.
- golemiprague 1y ago
  [dead]
- fkyoureadthedoc 1y ago
  Juul was very popular and less wasteful (although not perfect of course) as you disposed of the liquid pod rather than the whole device, they were regulated out of existence though. The regulations had loophole/oversight which paved the way for the disposable vape era.
  - johnisgood 1y ago
    And we have people in the comment section saying we need more regulations.
    - fkyoureadthedoc 1y ago
      There are many examples of good and bad regulations, I don't think you can just point at this one and say "see, regulation bad." They were too narrowly focused on cartridge based systems because that's what high school kids were hooked on. Technically the disposables need FDA approval I think, many just don't have it. Manufacturers, importers, and retailers just don't care. There's a buck to be made and the spice must flow.
andoando 1y ago
They need to regulate the nicotine content. In Canada its 2% at least. In the US its pretty much 5% juice only. 5% is 50mg/1ml. A cigarette pack has about 25mg. A geek bar has 16ml of juice = 800mg of nicotine = 32 packs of cigarettes.
- OkayPhysicist 1y ago
  While that does vaguely gesture at an increased nicotine consumption, it's pretty meaningless without the corresponding consumption rates. My gut suspects the average smoker goes through a pack of cigarettes a lot faster than the typical vaper goes through a rechargeable disposable vape.
  - andoando 1y ago
    Pack a day is considered heavy smoking. I go through those rechargeable ones in a week. That's pretty common I think for how addictive they are. https://www.reddit.com/r/Vaping/comments/1i9mva3/how_long_does_a_geek_bar_pulse_x_last_you/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Vaping/comments/1i9mva3/how_long_do... Before the disposables were a thing most juices were either 0.3% or 0.6% This is 100% big tobacco trying to get people hooked
rixed 1y ago
Cigarettes could sell at 3-4$ a pack only because some regulation are in place that enforce the total separation of manufacturing and selling those packs from paying the cost for the societal damages wrt. health, pollution, littering... There are many possible ways to slice the economical cake.
- ShroudedNight 1y ago
  I'm not sure what your point is here. 1) They don't sell for $3-4 a pack, yet your post seems to imply that the system has failed for cigarettes. 2) For externalities beyond the input cost of a product, the default [natural] condition is for those costs not to be included - one needn't enforce anything. Rather, it requires that someone with power put their thumb on the scale to enforce the inclusion of those costs during a sale[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigouvian_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigouvian_tax
  - rixed 1y ago
    Sorry it was unclear, I was replying specifically to: > If cigarettes were 3-4$ a pack (which they would be without sin taxes and regulatory overhead), Trying to show that 3-4$ a pack is not a more "natural" price for cigarettes than the current one, that it is a matter of perspective, and that if one wanted to construct such a natural price all externalities would have to be taken into account.

rebolek 1y ago

The regulation was written in time when there were no such devices. Are they "healthier" (less damaging) for the user? If yes, let's tax them lower. Are they less damaging for whole population? Considering the e-waste, I guess not, but it's not up to me to decide. If they aren't, they shouldn't be taxed higher that cigs, if yes, let's change the regulation.

lyu07282 1y ago
Because they contain so much more nicotine they are way more addicting, way better for the lungs than smoking but still bad for cardiovascular health. Disposables should be illegal for environmental protection reasons, that's a bit unrelated though since these companies can very easily switch to reusable/pod-systems. We want people to vape rather than smoke tobacco, obviously, it's not a zero-sum issue.

dpc050505 1y ago

You can get 10 packs for 20$CAD on reservations in Canada, and that's for decent cigarettes in packaging, the really cheap ones in ziploc bags go even cheaper. 3-4$ a pack is still a decent markup.

palata 1y ago

> It's the exact opposite. Tobacco is so heavily regulated and taxed that these become profitable. It's not the opposite at all. Tobacco should disappear just as well.

golemiprague 1y ago
[dead]
fkyoureadthedoc 1y ago
Juul was very popular and less wasteful (although not perfect of course) as you disposed of the liquid pod rather than the whole device, they were regulated out of existence though. The regulations had loophole/oversight which paved the way for the disposable vape era.
- johnisgood 1y ago
  And we have people in the comment section saying we need more regulations.
  - fkyoureadthedoc 1y ago
    There are many examples of good and bad regulations, I don't think you can just point at this one and say "see, regulation bad." They were too narrowly focused on cartridge based systems because that's what high school kids were hooked on. Technically the disposables need FDA approval I think, many just don't have it. Manufacturers, importers, and retailers just don't care. There's a buck to be made and the spice must flow.

andoando 1y ago

They need to regulate the nicotine content. In Canada its 2% at least. In the US its pretty much 5% juice only. 5% is 50mg/1ml. A cigarette pack has about 25mg. A geek bar has 16ml of juice = 800mg of nicotine = 32 packs of cigarettes.

OkayPhysicist 1y ago
While that does vaguely gesture at an increased nicotine consumption, it's pretty meaningless without the corresponding consumption rates. My gut suspects the average smoker goes through a pack of cigarettes a lot faster than the typical vaper goes through a rechargeable disposable vape.
- andoando 1y ago
  Pack a day is considered heavy smoking. I go through those rechargeable ones in a week. That's pretty common I think for how addictive they are. https://www.reddit.com/r/Vaping/comments/1i9mva3/how_long_does_a_geek_bar_pulse_x_last_you/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Vaping/comments/1i9mva3/how_long_do... Before the disposables were a thing most juices were either 0.3% or 0.6% This is 100% big tobacco trying to get people hooked

rixed 1y ago

Cigarettes could sell at 3-4$ a pack only because some regulation are in place that enforce the total separation of manufacturing and selling those packs from paying the cost for the societal damages wrt. health, pollution, littering... There are many possible ways to slice the economical cake.

ShroudedNight 1y ago
I'm not sure what your point is here. 1) They don't sell for $3-4 a pack, yet your post seems to imply that the system has failed for cigarettes. 2) For externalities beyond the input cost of a product, the default [natural] condition is for those costs not to be included - one needn't enforce anything. Rather, it requires that someone with power put their thumb on the scale to enforce the inclusion of those costs during a sale[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigouvian_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigouvian_tax
- rixed 1y ago
  Sorry it was unclear, I was replying specifically to: > If cigarettes were 3-4$ a pack (which they would be without sin taxes and regulatory overhead), Trying to show that 3-4$ a pack is not a more "natural" price for cigarettes than the current one, that it is a matter of perspective, and that if one wanted to construct such a natural price all externalities would have to be taken into account.