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I thought the whole point of a decentralised ledger was not needing companies like PayPal…

ecb_penguin 1y ago
That is the point! You don't need companies like Paypal... Companies often offer services that are "not needed" because people like convenience, ease of use, etc. You don't need Paypal to use Bitcoin, but there's nothing in the spec that prohibits it.
- Night_Thastus 1y ago
  I think their point is that in the end, most people want convenience. That convenience requires centralization, which eliminates a lot of the supposed benefits that something like cryptocurrencies were promoted with. We've already seen it play out very poorly several times in crypto already.
  - pants2 1y ago
    This adds convenience because I can instantly send ETH from Robinhood to PayPal to Coinbase to my Ledger, without dealing with banking rails or creating a taxable event.
  - kragen 1y ago
    I don't think convenience requires centralization. Centralization makes some things easier and other things impossible, and things in both of those categories can be useful for convenience. BitTorrent, the WWW, and VisiCalc on the Apple ][ are three examples of distributed or decentralized systems that were much more convenient to use than their centralized predecessors.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
1970-01-01 1y ago
This point is conveniently missing. There's simply more money to be made! Now get out of here with your nonsense ideas of decentralizing money. It's bad for business.
- Synaesthesia 1y ago
  Exactly why the crypto ideal failed.
xhkkffbf 1y ago
The Internet is decentralized but most of us use ISPs to connect to it. Most of can't access the Internet without these companies. In practice, the word "decentralized" just speaks to whether anyone can join in the protocol if they want. But it doesn't mean the protocol is easy to implement.
Lerc 1y ago
The power of not needing companies like PayPal does not preclude them from offering services that ease its use. The benefit comes from having the option to go elsewhere. A business that cannot lock you in is more likely to try to retain your custom by offering a good service.
jmcgough 1y ago
PayPal has been slowly circling the drain for years, grasping at highly questionable Hail Mary's like crypto coins.
- sowbug 1y ago
  They earned $1.2 billion last quarter. That drain must be in a very nice part of town.
  - Karrot_Kream 1y ago
    It's the same drain that Meta's been circling, the one that exists in HN commenters' minds.
BinaryIgor 1y ago
It's not that simple, there's a niuance there - tradeoffs are to to be made if we want to have a decentralized system; it will not scale to the whole planet, if running a node is accessible; and it must be so, otherwise it's not decentralized. The reality is, we will have a mix of custodian - through third-party - and self-sovereign usage; depending on the context and user's skill
tshaddox 1y ago
I thought the point was more that you can't be required to use companies like PayPal in order to use the underlying technology.
yieldcrv 1y ago
better call up the Bitcoin CEO and Vitalik to voice your complaints that a third party you don't have to use at all is using your favorite network
abdullahkhalids 1y ago
There is a beautiful quote about this that captures an essential process within our economic system. > Under capitalism necessities become luxuries, while luxuries become false necessities. Umair Haque
xyst 1y ago
It’s a grift, that’s why. Pedophile protector administration has silently dropped all of the regulatory lawsuits related to digital currency. There is minimal or no oversight right now. The pedophile in chief and family himself have also rug pulled their own tokens and not many people are caring. I used to work at a few big banks, and because of the "friendly" nature of digital currencies. The traditional banking entities are trying to get in on the grift while they can.
bdcravens 1y ago
Or Coinbase, or Cash App, or Venmo, or any of the other random places you can buy cryptocurrency. If it's not on the blockchain, it's not cryptocurrency; it's just an IOU until you withdraw to a private wallet.
- sfdlkj3jk342a 1y ago
  Which can still be useful. Just like banks used to issue "IOUs" in exchange for depositing your gold coins, so that it was easier and safer to transfer small amounts.
ertian 1y ago
The point of cash is that it represents transferrable value that doesn't require an intermediary between you and the person you're transacting with. And yet, banks and credit card companies exist and deal with cash. This does not mean that cash is a useless concept.
- stathibus 1y ago
  Okay and the key difference between crypto and cash/credit/whatever is supposedly that it is decentralized. Or have we abandoned that false premise now?
  - Karrot_Kream 1y ago
    That credit cards exist didn't mean cash stopped existing. Likewise, just because CEXes and L2s exist doesn't mean L1 cryptocurrency doesn't exist. You can still grab a non-custodial wallet and still manage your own crypto. Today Coinbase has a debit card that can sell crypto at FMV, apply their spread (1.88% I think?), and immediately use that to pay off USD denominated bills. So if your crypto is in your wallet you can just send your Coinbase wallet the funds for the purchase and then swipe your debit card to pay. Coinbase's spread isn't the worst thing to pay for the service of having a debit card and auto-selling, but if you also buy crypto using Coinbase, they double-dip on the fee.
  - ertian 1y ago
    Cash has centralized distribution, but it's very decentralized in use. That's what makes it useful. However, sometimes people might choose to use a centralized service provider (like a bank, or a credit card company) because it's useful. They still have the option of using cash. What's important isn't that every single transaction happens in a fully-decentralized way: it's that decentralized transactions remain an option. That means that banks and credit card companies have to compete with cash, and that they can never have full control of your financial life. The same is true of cryptocurrency. It's not a problem that centralized service providers exist. If they stop providing useful services, people can just take their cryptocurrency and go home.
nly 1y ago
Yeah, but Bitcoins ledger is shit.

That is the point! You don't need companies like Paypal... Companies often offer services that are "not needed" because people like convenience, ease of use, etc. You don't need Paypal to use Bitcoin, but there's nothing in the spec that prohibits it.

Night_Thastus 1y ago
I think their point is that in the end, most people want convenience. That convenience requires centralization, which eliminates a lot of the supposed benefits that something like cryptocurrencies were promoted with. We've already seen it play out very poorly several times in crypto already.
- pants2 1y ago
  This adds convenience because I can instantly send ETH from Robinhood to PayPal to Coinbase to my Ledger, without dealing with banking rails or creating a taxable event.
- kragen 1y ago
  I don't think convenience requires centralization. Centralization makes some things easier and other things impossible, and things in both of those categories can be useful for convenience. BitTorrent, the WWW, and VisiCalc on the Apple ][ are three examples of distributed or decentralized systems that were much more convenient to use than their centralized predecessors.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

1970-01-01 1y ago

This point is conveniently missing. There's simply more money to be made! Now get out of here with your nonsense ideas of decentralizing money. It's bad for business.

Synaesthesia 1y ago
Exactly why the crypto ideal failed.

xhkkffbf 1y ago

The Internet is decentralized but most of us use ISPs to connect to it. Most of can't access the Internet without these companies. In practice, the word "decentralized" just speaks to whether anyone can join in the protocol if they want. But it doesn't mean the protocol is easy to implement.

Lerc 1y ago

The power of not needing companies like PayPal does not preclude them from offering services that ease its use. The benefit comes from having the option to go elsewhere. A business that cannot lock you in is more likely to try to retain your custom by offering a good service.

jmcgough 1y ago

PayPal has been slowly circling the drain for years, grasping at highly questionable Hail Mary's like crypto coins.

sowbug 1y ago
They earned $1.2 billion last quarter. That drain must be in a very nice part of town.
- Karrot_Kream 1y ago
  It's the same drain that Meta's been circling, the one that exists in HN commenters' minds.

BinaryIgor 1y ago

It's not that simple, there's a niuance there - tradeoffs are to to be made if we want to have a decentralized system; it will not scale to the whole planet, if running a node is accessible; and it must be so, otherwise it's not decentralized. The reality is, we will have a mix of custodian - through third-party - and self-sovereign usage; depending on the context and user's skill

tshaddox 1y ago

I thought the point was more that you can't be required to use companies like PayPal in order to use the underlying technology.

yieldcrv 1y ago

better call up the Bitcoin CEO and Vitalik to voice your complaints that a third party you don't have to use at all is using your favorite network

abdullahkhalids 1y ago

There is a beautiful quote about this that captures an essential process within our economic system. > Under capitalism necessities become luxuries, while luxuries become false necessities. Umair Haque

xyst 1y ago

It’s a grift, that’s why. Pedophile protector administration has silently dropped all of the regulatory lawsuits related to digital currency. There is minimal or no oversight right now. The pedophile in chief and family himself have also rug pulled their own tokens and not many people are caring. I used to work at a few big banks, and because of the "friendly" nature of digital currencies. The traditional banking entities are trying to get in on the grift while they can.

bdcravens 1y ago

Or Coinbase, or Cash App, or Venmo, or any of the other random places you can buy cryptocurrency. If it's not on the blockchain, it's not cryptocurrency; it's just an IOU until you withdraw to a private wallet.

sfdlkj3jk342a 1y ago
Which can still be useful. Just like banks used to issue "IOUs" in exchange for depositing your gold coins, so that it was easier and safer to transfer small amounts.

ertian 1y ago

The point of cash is that it represents transferrable value that doesn't require an intermediary between you and the person you're transacting with. And yet, banks and credit card companies exist and deal with cash. This does not mean that cash is a useless concept.

stathibus 1y ago
Okay and the key difference between crypto and cash/credit/whatever is supposedly that it is decentralized. Or have we abandoned that false premise now?
- Karrot_Kream 1y ago
  That credit cards exist didn't mean cash stopped existing. Likewise, just because CEXes and L2s exist doesn't mean L1 cryptocurrency doesn't exist. You can still grab a non-custodial wallet and still manage your own crypto. Today Coinbase has a debit card that can sell crypto at FMV, apply their spread (1.88% I think?), and immediately use that to pay off USD denominated bills. So if your crypto is in your wallet you can just send your Coinbase wallet the funds for the purchase and then swipe your debit card to pay. Coinbase's spread isn't the worst thing to pay for the service of having a debit card and auto-selling, but if you also buy crypto using Coinbase, they double-dip on the fee.
- ertian 1y ago
  Cash has centralized distribution, but it's very decentralized in use. That's what makes it useful. However, sometimes people might choose to use a centralized service provider (like a bank, or a credit card company) because it's useful. They still have the option of using cash. What's important isn't that every single transaction happens in a fully-decentralized way: it's that decentralized transactions remain an option. That means that banks and credit card companies have to compete with cash, and that they can never have full control of your financial life. The same is true of cryptocurrency. It's not a problem that centralized service providers exist. If they stop providing useful services, people can just take their cryptocurrency and go home.

nly 1y ago

Yeah, but Bitcoins ledger is shit.