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Will the Butlerian Jihad find all the vapes?

by Mistletoe 1y ago

ffsm8 1y ago
[flagged]
- zknow 1y ago
  Really? I thought that it was kind of a ecumenist religion that included themes from many religions.
  - overfeed 1y ago
    I hope gp goes on a tear about the Orange Catholic Bible next, and how outrageous its non-subtle references are.
  - NemoNobody 1y ago
    It is.
  - ffsm8 1y ago
    not really, pretty old overview on it - but kept up to date it seems (current references to interviews) https://baheyeldin.com/literature/arabic-and-islamic-themes-in-frank-herberts-dune.html https://baheyeldin.com/literature/arabic-and-islamic-themes-... its true that the concept of a _holy war_ isnt unique to the muslim faith though. I never claimed that either however. It's slightly surprising to me how few people seem to be aware of that in HN. Was expecting the general readership here to be a little less obsessively righteous and uninformed on a topic like this, but ymmv I guess
- i80and 1y ago
  This is an exceedingly strange comment -- you made up a silly thing to get upset about, and are making fun of people who aren't upset about the thing, because you think it's the sort of thing they would be upset about, even though it isn't and you say as much? This feels like a whole new category of straw man.
  - jeej 1y ago
    "thinking of inventing a new type of person to get mad at on here. maybe people who carry too many keys around.. i dont know yet" -Dril
- staplers 1y ago
  obsessively woke people Because most "woke" stuff is made up or blown out of proportion by people on the internet. One person might do one thing and the video/meme goes viral and people eat up the story like its some movement
  - motorest 1y ago
    > Because most "woke" stuff is made up or blown out of proportion by people on the internet. I think you are misinterpreting the issue. I'll explain why. There are attention-seekers which were given access to platforms with unprecedented reach. Some of these types tap into outrage culture as their engagement mechanism. This creates a vicious cycle of outrage which feeds on outputting outrageous claims and taking the resulting outrage as input to further double down on outputting outrageous claims. You then end up with opposing outrage camps of whatever subject you can think of which exist to generate a larger volume of outrage than the opposing camp. The problem is that the terminally-online types confuse this sort of discourse with reality, and the outrageous claims as representative of what happens in real life. That's how you end up with people outraged with outrageous claims that are so outrageous to the point they are unthinkable.
  - blooalien 1y ago
    At least partly because ["woke"] sadly doesn't even remotely mean what it used to mean anymore. It's been "stolen" and abused by those who vehemently hate everything that any part of it has ever stood for. [woke @ wikipedia]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
- Findecanor 1y ago
  The word "jihad" has a wider meaning than "holy war". It would better be translated into "worthy struggle" — with "worthy" being very subjective. Islam is in fact the largest religion (by worshippers) in the world today, so Frank Herbert's assumption that a culture derived from it would be dominant in a future society is just extrapolation.
  - ffsm8 1y ago
    > Islam is in fact the largest religion (by worshippers) in the world today, so Frank Herbert's assumption that a culture derived from it would be dominant in a future society is just extrapolation Fyi, > Dune is a 1965 epic science fiction novel by American author Frank Herber The distinction you're making wrt Jihad is also super modern and did not apply back then
  - kpil 1y ago
    I think the current estimate is that there are almost a half a billion more Christians than Muslims (in 2025.) One reason is that the number of Christians in Sub-Saharan Africa is growing. But extrapolating the trends, yes Islam will probably become the largest religion in the coming decades. Or at least maybe - looking at birth rates, it seems as second generation muslim immigrants to Western countries have even lower birth rates than the native population. That might happen also in regions say like Pakistan and Indonesia and other fast growing regions, depending on economical or other changes.
- int_19h 1y ago
  There are many discussions on this exact topic online. TL;DR: while Dune has many references to various concepts coming from Islamic societies throughout, the Fremen are the obvious stand-in for Arabs specifically, and so get the most attention. And, in the context of the first book at least, Fremen are the "good guys" in many ways - if you reframe it in modern terms, they are the natives fighting against a colonial empire that subjugates them in order to extract a valuable resource from their lands, and then on top of that there's also the more subtle ecological angle.

Will the Butlerian Jihad find all the vapes?

ffsm8 1y ago

[flagged]

zknow 1y ago
Really? I thought that it was kind of a ecumenist religion that included themes from many religions.
- overfeed 1y ago
  I hope gp goes on a tear about the Orange Catholic Bible next, and how outrageous its non-subtle references are.
- NemoNobody 1y ago
  It is.
- ffsm8 1y ago
  not really, pretty old overview on it - but kept up to date it seems (current references to interviews) https://baheyeldin.com/literature/arabic-and-islamic-themes-in-frank-herberts-dune.html https://baheyeldin.com/literature/arabic-and-islamic-themes-... its true that the concept of a _holy war_ isnt unique to the muslim faith though. I never claimed that either however. It's slightly surprising to me how few people seem to be aware of that in HN. Was expecting the general readership here to be a little less obsessively righteous and uninformed on a topic like this, but ymmv I guess
i80and 1y ago
This is an exceedingly strange comment -- you made up a silly thing to get upset about, and are making fun of people who aren't upset about the thing, because you think it's the sort of thing they would be upset about, even though it isn't and you say as much? This feels like a whole new category of straw man.
- jeej 1y ago
  "thinking of inventing a new type of person to get mad at on here. maybe people who carry too many keys around.. i dont know yet" -Dril
staplers 1y ago
obsessively woke people Because most "woke" stuff is made up or blown out of proportion by people on the internet. One person might do one thing and the video/meme goes viral and people eat up the story like its some movement
- motorest 1y ago
  > Because most "woke" stuff is made up or blown out of proportion by people on the internet. I think you are misinterpreting the issue. I'll explain why. There are attention-seekers which were given access to platforms with unprecedented reach. Some of these types tap into outrage culture as their engagement mechanism. This creates a vicious cycle of outrage which feeds on outputting outrageous claims and taking the resulting outrage as input to further double down on outputting outrageous claims. You then end up with opposing outrage camps of whatever subject you can think of which exist to generate a larger volume of outrage than the opposing camp. The problem is that the terminally-online types confuse this sort of discourse with reality, and the outrageous claims as representative of what happens in real life. That's how you end up with people outraged with outrageous claims that are so outrageous to the point they are unthinkable.
- blooalien 1y ago
  At least partly because ["woke"] sadly doesn't even remotely mean what it used to mean anymore. It's been "stolen" and abused by those who vehemently hate everything that any part of it has ever stood for. [woke @ wikipedia]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
Findecanor 1y ago
The word "jihad" has a wider meaning than "holy war". It would better be translated into "worthy struggle" — with "worthy" being very subjective. Islam is in fact the largest religion (by worshippers) in the world today, so Frank Herbert's assumption that a culture derived from it would be dominant in a future society is just extrapolation.
- ffsm8 1y ago
  > Islam is in fact the largest religion (by worshippers) in the world today, so Frank Herbert's assumption that a culture derived from it would be dominant in a future society is just extrapolation Fyi, > Dune is a 1965 epic science fiction novel by American author Frank Herber The distinction you're making wrt Jihad is also super modern and did not apply back then
- kpil 1y ago
  I think the current estimate is that there are almost a half a billion more Christians than Muslims (in 2025.) One reason is that the number of Christians in Sub-Saharan Africa is growing. But extrapolating the trends, yes Islam will probably become the largest religion in the coming decades. Or at least maybe - looking at birth rates, it seems as second generation muslim immigrants to Western countries have even lower birth rates than the native population. That might happen also in regions say like Pakistan and Indonesia and other fast growing regions, depending on economical or other changes.
int_19h 1y ago
There are many discussions on this exact topic online. TL;DR: while Dune has many references to various concepts coming from Islamic societies throughout, the Fremen are the obvious stand-in for Arabs specifically, and so get the most attention. And, in the context of the first book at least, Fremen are the "good guys" in many ways - if you reframe it in modern terms, they are the natives fighting against a colonial empire that subjugates them in order to extract a valuable resource from their lands, and then on top of that there's also the more subtle ecological angle.