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The only leverage countries have against the US is exporting something that the US wants. Rare earths, electronics, cars, etc. If they are blackmailed via tari

The only leverage countries have against the US is exporting something that the US wants. Rare earths, electronics, cars, etc. If they are blackmailed via tariffs to build factories in the US so that the US becomes self-sufficient, there is no leverage at all. So don't build these factories.

alephnerd 1y ago
European, Japanese, and Taiwanese companies have not done the same shenanigans that Hyundai Group and LG Group are doing with VWP and B1/2 visas. If they can build battery factories, semiconductor fabs, and various other factories in the US without having to resort to the above visa abuses, why can't Korea Inc? Heck, Daimler built a similar sized factory to Hyundai-LG's in MS relying only on American labor [0] [0] - https://www.daimlertruck.com/en/newsroom/pressrelease/accelera-by-cummins-daimler-truck-and-paccar-select-mississippi-for-battery-cell-production-in-the-united-states-52568947 https://www.daimlertruck.com/en/newsroom/pressrelease/accele...
- comte7092 1y ago
  That’s a joint venture with two American manufacturers (and Daimler trucks North America itself was an American company it bought out), it’s not a realistic comparison.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    Fine. Then how about Japan-domiciled Panasonic [0][1] and Toyota [2], as well as (South Korean) Samsung and Stellantis' gigafactory [3]? You didn't see similar persistent flouting of labor and immigration laws despite all 3 being lead by Asian (and in some cases Korean) companies with similar organizational structures. Hyundai played it fast and loose. If Samsung SDI can open a gigafactory in the US while following US laws, why can't Hyundai? Just because ICE was extremely heavy-handed does NOT absolve or give Hyundai-LG the right to break American labor or immigration laws, or ask for special treatment. Even Biden bluntly told Hyundai leadership to "Hire American" [4] following pushback over this plant. [0] - https://na.panasonic.com/news/panasonic-energy-begins-mass-production-at-new-automotive-lithium-ion-battery-factory-in-kansas-aiming-for-annual-capacity-of-32-gwh-to-accelerate-us-local-production https://na.panasonic.com/news/panasonic-energy-begins-mass-p... [1] - https://www.desotoks.us/394/Panasonic-Electric-Vehicle-Battery-Facil https://www.desotoks.us/394/Panasonic-Electric-Vehicle-Batte... [2] - https://www.toyota.com/usa/operations/map/tbmnc https://www.toyota.com/usa/operations/map/tbmnc [3] - https://news.samsungsdi.com/global/articleView?seq=36 https://news.samsungsdi.com/global/articleView?seq=36 [4] - https://www.ft.com/content/c677b9aa-2e89-4feb-a56f-f3c8452b3674 https://www.ft.com/content/c677b9aa-2e89-4feb-a56f-f3c8452b3...
    - lawlessone 1y ago
      Ok What's in it for these companies to give the US all their stuff? I'm seeing a lot of demands form the US with the only upside being the privilege to sell stuff to Americans. What can they use those dollars to buy?
      - alephnerd 1y ago
        This plant [0] and others like it were all subsidized by the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) [1]. If our tax dollars are going to subsidize the construction and development of these factories, then they better follow our laws. Hyundai is the only malcontent. Every other IRA project has not had a similar kind of scandal. If Hyundai doesn't want to participate in American Industrial Subsidizes by following our laws, they can return the billions of dollars in subsidizes provided. > I'm seeing a lot of demands Follow our laws if you want our subsidizes. Hire American if you want our subsidizes. Biden literally told Hyundai's leadership this same thing point blank. [2] [0] - https://www.ossoff.senate.gov/press-releases/sen-ossoff-lg-energy-solutions-hyundai-to-build-4-3-billion-ev-battery-plant-in-georgia-create-3000-jobs/ https://www.ossoff.senate.gov/press-releases/sen-ossoff-lg-e... [1] - https://e2.org/announcements/ https://e2.org/announcements/ [2] - https://www.ft.com/content/c677b9aa-2e89-4feb-a56f-f3c8452b3674 https://www.ft.com/content/c677b9aa-2e89-4feb-a56f-f3c8452b3...
    - lazyeye 1y ago
      You also have to wonder how illegal immigration is managed in Korea. I'm going to assume they take a very different approach from what they are expecting from the US.
    - judahmeek 1y ago
      > You didn't see similar persistent flouting of labor and immigration laws... Where's the evidence of this persistent flouting of immigration laws? How do you that the other factories don't (or didn't) have the exact same issues & Hyundai was just the first factory that ICE chose to target?
    - comte7092 1y ago
      I must confess that these specific stories are outside my domain of knowledge that I can’t comfortably comment on them specifically. My understanding is that it is fairly common practice for foreign companies to send experts from their home countries in order to do knowledge transfer, since the skill set isn’t available domestically. https://x.com/_mm85/status/1964631794260857114 https://x.com/_mm85/status/1964631794260857114
- aaomidi 1y ago
  Then fine the companies and don’t shackle the workers. This isn’t just going to impact our relationship with Korea, but also the rest of the world too. Optics, in international relations, matter a lot.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    > Then fine the companies and don’t shackle the workers We have been for years now, but Hyundai has not changed their practices in the US. From child labor [0] to employees literally crushed to death [1] to constant OSHA failures [2] for over a decade [3], Hyundai's leadership has continued to have a horrid track record on worker safety in the United States. We have been punishing them for decades, but they do not change. If this is the only way to get a message across to Korea Inc, so be it. > Optics, in international relations, matter a lot. Of course. Yet the optics of a company like Hyundai getting hundreds of millions to billions of dollars in state and federal subsidizes but continuing to flout US laws also matters. As I mentioned before, Samsung hasn't had similar scandals despite investing a similar amount in the US, nor have Hyundai's peers in Japan. Using the ICE raid to whitewash Hyundai's obscene labor record (like a number of commentators are doing) is ridiculous. [0] - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/30/business/hyundai-child-labor-lawsuit.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/30/business/hyundai-child-la... [1] - https://www.enr.com/articles/60802-third-fatality-recorded-at-hyundais-76b-metaplant-in-georgia https://www.enr.com/articles/60802-third-fatality-recorded-a... [2] - https://www.wsav.com/news/local-news/osha-construction-workers-death-at-hyundai-site-couldve-been-prevented/ https://www.wsav.com/news/local-news/osha-construction-worke... [3] - https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/osha/osha20161214-0 https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/osha/osha20161214-0
    - Tadpole9181 1y ago
      They didn't whitewash anything, read their comment(s) again. They said to punish the company, but not put hundreds of employees who were told their papers were in order - half of which whose papers were - in literal shackles like they're violent criminals. What the everyday person sees in their news feeds is important and shapes how the US is viewed culturally and as an economic partner. I'll throw in that we should actually talk about fixing our VISA rules?
- lazyeye 1y ago
  Its so strange how illegal immigration has been completely normalised in the minds of some people.
  - shadowgovt 1y ago
    Compare the war on drugs. When a government policy fails to address an issue for decades, it kind of gives the lie to the policy itself. It's become normalized because it's normal. Illegal immigrants are our friends, loved ones, colleagues, and classmates.
    - lazyeye 1y ago
      Groan...
      - shadowgovt 1y ago
        You can groan, but you can't provide a working solution. I never expected this administration to successfully remove illegal immigrants because fundamentally at this point removing illegal immigrants means removing our neighbors. I did anticipate they would, and will continue to, unsuccessfully address the problem while causing an awful lot of pain for both immigrants and American citizens (this was inevitable since the problem fundamentally boils down to separating people from their neighbors over something as arbitrary as "borders someone else drew on a map before we were born").
        lazyeye 1y ago
        That's a little bit simplistic. Serious question...how old are you? Your world view is what I'd expect for someone with minimal life experience as an adult. Are you under 20?
        shadowgovt 1y ago
        Just the opposite, honestly. In my twenties I thought this was very simple and didn't understand why we hadn't sent all the "illegals" somewhere else. I got older and wiser, and watched several more administrations face-plant when they tried to pretend it was an easy problem with an easy solution.

alephnerd 1y ago

European, Japanese, and Taiwanese companies have not done the same shenanigans that Hyundai Group and LG Group are doing with VWP and B1/2 visas. If they can build battery factories, semiconductor fabs, and various other factories in the US without having to resort to the above visa abuses, why can't Korea Inc? Heck, Daimler built a similar sized factory to Hyundai-LG's in MS relying only on American labor [0] [0] - https://www.daimlertruck.com/en/newsroom/pressrelease/accelera-by-cummins-daimler-truck-and-paccar-select-mississippi-for-battery-cell-production-in-the-united-states-52568947 https://www.daimlertruck.com/en/newsroom/pressrelease/accele...

comte7092 1y ago
That’s a joint venture with two American manufacturers (and Daimler trucks North America itself was an American company it bought out), it’s not a realistic comparison.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  Fine. Then how about Japan-domiciled Panasonic [0][1] and Toyota [2], as well as (South Korean) Samsung and Stellantis' gigafactory [3]? You didn't see similar persistent flouting of labor and immigration laws despite all 3 being lead by Asian (and in some cases Korean) companies with similar organizational structures. Hyundai played it fast and loose. If Samsung SDI can open a gigafactory in the US while following US laws, why can't Hyundai? Just because ICE was extremely heavy-handed does NOT absolve or give Hyundai-LG the right to break American labor or immigration laws, or ask for special treatment. Even Biden bluntly told Hyundai leadership to "Hire American" [4] following pushback over this plant. [0] - https://na.panasonic.com/news/panasonic-energy-begins-mass-production-at-new-automotive-lithium-ion-battery-factory-in-kansas-aiming-for-annual-capacity-of-32-gwh-to-accelerate-us-local-production https://na.panasonic.com/news/panasonic-energy-begins-mass-p... [1] - https://www.desotoks.us/394/Panasonic-Electric-Vehicle-Battery-Facil https://www.desotoks.us/394/Panasonic-Electric-Vehicle-Batte... [2] - https://www.toyota.com/usa/operations/map/tbmnc https://www.toyota.com/usa/operations/map/tbmnc [3] - https://news.samsungsdi.com/global/articleView?seq=36 https://news.samsungsdi.com/global/articleView?seq=36 [4] - https://www.ft.com/content/c677b9aa-2e89-4feb-a56f-f3c8452b3674 https://www.ft.com/content/c677b9aa-2e89-4feb-a56f-f3c8452b3...
  - lawlessone 1y ago
    Ok What's in it for these companies to give the US all their stuff? I'm seeing a lot of demands form the US with the only upside being the privilege to sell stuff to Americans. What can they use those dollars to buy?
    - alephnerd 1y ago
      This plant [0] and others like it were all subsidized by the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) [1]. If our tax dollars are going to subsidize the construction and development of these factories, then they better follow our laws. Hyundai is the only malcontent. Every other IRA project has not had a similar kind of scandal. If Hyundai doesn't want to participate in American Industrial Subsidizes by following our laws, they can return the billions of dollars in subsidizes provided. > I'm seeing a lot of demands Follow our laws if you want our subsidizes. Hire American if you want our subsidizes. Biden literally told Hyundai's leadership this same thing point blank. [2] [0] - https://www.ossoff.senate.gov/press-releases/sen-ossoff-lg-energy-solutions-hyundai-to-build-4-3-billion-ev-battery-plant-in-georgia-create-3000-jobs/ https://www.ossoff.senate.gov/press-releases/sen-ossoff-lg-e... [1] - https://e2.org/announcements/ https://e2.org/announcements/ [2] - https://www.ft.com/content/c677b9aa-2e89-4feb-a56f-f3c8452b3674 https://www.ft.com/content/c677b9aa-2e89-4feb-a56f-f3c8452b3...
  - lazyeye 1y ago
    You also have to wonder how illegal immigration is managed in Korea. I'm going to assume they take a very different approach from what they are expecting from the US.
  - judahmeek 1y ago
    > You didn't see similar persistent flouting of labor and immigration laws... Where's the evidence of this persistent flouting of immigration laws? How do you that the other factories don't (or didn't) have the exact same issues & Hyundai was just the first factory that ICE chose to target?
  - comte7092 1y ago
    I must confess that these specific stories are outside my domain of knowledge that I can’t comfortably comment on them specifically. My understanding is that it is fairly common practice for foreign companies to send experts from their home countries in order to do knowledge transfer, since the skill set isn’t available domestically. https://x.com/_mm85/status/1964631794260857114 https://x.com/_mm85/status/1964631794260857114
aaomidi 1y ago
Then fine the companies and don’t shackle the workers. This isn’t just going to impact our relationship with Korea, but also the rest of the world too. Optics, in international relations, matter a lot.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  > Then fine the companies and don’t shackle the workers We have been for years now, but Hyundai has not changed their practices in the US. From child labor [0] to employees literally crushed to death [1] to constant OSHA failures [2] for over a decade [3], Hyundai's leadership has continued to have a horrid track record on worker safety in the United States. We have been punishing them for decades, but they do not change. If this is the only way to get a message across to Korea Inc, so be it. > Optics, in international relations, matter a lot. Of course. Yet the optics of a company like Hyundai getting hundreds of millions to billions of dollars in state and federal subsidizes but continuing to flout US laws also matters. As I mentioned before, Samsung hasn't had similar scandals despite investing a similar amount in the US, nor have Hyundai's peers in Japan. Using the ICE raid to whitewash Hyundai's obscene labor record (like a number of commentators are doing) is ridiculous. [0] - https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/30/business/hyundai-child-labor-lawsuit.html https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/30/business/hyundai-child-la... [1] - https://www.enr.com/articles/60802-third-fatality-recorded-at-hyundais-76b-metaplant-in-georgia https://www.enr.com/articles/60802-third-fatality-recorded-a... [2] - https://www.wsav.com/news/local-news/osha-construction-workers-death-at-hyundai-site-couldve-been-prevented/ https://www.wsav.com/news/local-news/osha-construction-worke... [3] - https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/osha/osha20161214-0 https://www.dol.gov/newsroom/releases/osha/osha20161214-0
  - Tadpole9181 1y ago
    They didn't whitewash anything, read their comment(s) again. They said to punish the company, but not put hundreds of employees who were told their papers were in order - half of which whose papers were - in literal shackles like they're violent criminals. What the everyday person sees in their news feeds is important and shapes how the US is viewed culturally and as an economic partner. I'll throw in that we should actually talk about fixing our VISA rules?
lazyeye 1y ago
Its so strange how illegal immigration has been completely normalised in the minds of some people.
- shadowgovt 1y ago
  Compare the war on drugs. When a government policy fails to address an issue for decades, it kind of gives the lie to the policy itself. It's become normalized because it's normal. Illegal immigrants are our friends, loved ones, colleagues, and classmates.
  - lazyeye 1y ago
    Groan...
    - shadowgovt 1y ago
      You can groan, but you can't provide a working solution. I never expected this administration to successfully remove illegal immigrants because fundamentally at this point removing illegal immigrants means removing our neighbors. I did anticipate they would, and will continue to, unsuccessfully address the problem while causing an awful lot of pain for both immigrants and American citizens (this was inevitable since the problem fundamentally boils down to separating people from their neighbors over something as arbitrary as "borders someone else drew on a map before we were born").
      - lazyeye 1y ago
        That's a little bit simplistic. Serious question...how old are you? Your world view is what I'd expect for someone with minimal life experience as an adult. Are you under 20?
        shadowgovt 1y ago
        Just the opposite, honestly. In my twenties I thought this was very simple and didn't understand why we hadn't sent all the "illegals" somewhere else. I got older and wiser, and watched several more administrations face-plant when they tried to pretend it was an easy problem with an easy solution.