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> it sounds like I'm just describing something like petrol in a solid form at room temperature That's what plastic IS. That's why it sounds like it, because pl

by ars 1y ago

> it sounds like I'm just describing something like petrol in a solid form at room temperature That's what plastic IS. That's why it sounds like it, because plastic is in fact solid hydrocarbon. So not only is it not farfetched, it exists today, which is also why incinerating plastic for energy is the best possible way to dispose it. You remove the plastic from the world, you reduce the amount of oil pumped for fuel, and you get to use the oil you do pump, twice! Once for plastic, and again for fuel. It's one of those environmental slam dunks with zero downsides. (Before you ask: Modern incinerators do not release any toxins from burning plastic, none.)

par1970 1y ago
So do we already do this? And if not, why not?
- ars 1y ago
  We sure do, Sweden imports trash (actual trash, not recycling) because it's a huge part of their energy source. A large amount of plastic recycling is burned, but always in secret, because when people find out they freak out, because they mistakenly think that making some new plastic out of it is somehow better.
kortilla 1y ago
How do these systems handle the extra crap on the plastic?
PaulHoule 1y ago
Polyolefin plastics like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polypropylene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polypropylene and even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystyrene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystyrene are "solid hydrocarbons" but most plastics are more complex than that. One reason we quit burning trash in many places is the presence of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride which produces HCl which eats the incinerator. [1] Sure you can build a chemically tougher incinerator and add lime but practically stripping toxins from incinerators is a function of building a stripper tuned to whatever toxins are expected to be in the particular waste and frequently adding something that reacts with them. You can't really "burn up" heavy metals and certain other poisons and those either go up the stack or are part of the ash that has to be disposed of. A technology you hear about more than you hear about real implementations is "chemical recycling of plastics" through pyrolysis which implement more or less controlled combustion and captures petrochemical molecules that can be used either for fuel or to make plastics and other chemicals: these manage to capture or consume most of the products but some of the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons that are produced when you burn plastic are practically drugs that cause cancer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo(a)pyrene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo(a)pyrene [1] Plenty of others contain oxygen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_terephthalate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_terephthalate or nitrogen such: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonitrile_butadiene_styrene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonitrile_butadiene_styren... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon
- ars 1y ago
  Most disposable plastic is not PVC. Because Chlorine prolongs the life of the plastic, it's specifically used on things that you don't throw out. In any case incinerators can handle the chlorine - it's so reactive that it's actually very easy to filter. > You can't really "burn up" heavy metals There are no heavy metals in plastic, and very little in consumer waste as a whole. > are "solid hydrocarbons" but most plastics are more complex than that But those 3 you listed are the vast majority of the thrown out plastics.
  - PaulHoule 1y ago
    Municipal waste has a large fraction of waste from demolished buildings which includes wood, concrete, bricks, all sorts of stuff. PVC is a significant part of that waste because it is used for siding, floors, etc. In a consolidated municipal waste stream heavy metals are a concern because they concentrate in the ash which has to be carefully stored. This kind of system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_gasification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_gasification is supposed to encapsulate heavy metals into slag particles that aren't very mobile and can be incorporated into roads, building aggregates and such but people have struggled to make them work, part of it is that the syngas plant and whatever uses the syngas and cleans up the syngas and/or the products of using the syngas is a chemical factory that depends on the inputs having a certain composition and the composition of a municipal waste stream is not at all constant. PET is a major thrown-out plastic that's not a hydrocarbon, it's also the most recycled. Polystyrene, funny enough, is easy to chemically recycle but not through pyrolysis, it's the sort of thing you might even demo in a high school chemistry class if styrene wasn't so carcinogenic. It's never caught on because expanded polystyrene is hard to handle, transport and bring back to a chemical factory large enough to efficiently consume.
    - ars 1y ago
      How is PET not a hydrocarbon (for the purposes of burning it)? It's (C10 H8 O4)n the oxygen makes it not technically a hydrocarbon, but it will burn just fine and cleanly. Your point about building waste is valid, but I think most of that stuff goes in dumpsters and can be directed to a different wasting handling.
yellowapple 1y ago
> It's one of those environmental slam dunks with zero downsides In relation to directly burning oil for fuel, yeah. In relation to other disposal methods, there's still the pretty major downside of being dependent on a non-renewable resource, in addition to… > (Before you ask: Modern incinerators do not release any toxins from burning plastic, none.) Greenhouse gas emissions are still an issue, though, no? Or do the incinerators capture that?
- toast0 1y ago
  If you were going to burn oil for power, and instead you burn used plastic that for power, greenhouse gas emissions from the burning are roughly similar. However, you skip the emissions from oil extraction and transport, assuming the plastic is burned close to its use / collection.

by ars 1y ago

par1970 1y ago

So do we already do this? And if not, why not?

ars 1y ago
We sure do, Sweden imports trash (actual trash, not recycling) because it's a huge part of their energy source. A large amount of plastic recycling is burned, but always in secret, because when people find out they freak out, because they mistakenly think that making some new plastic out of it is somehow better.

kortilla 1y ago

How do these systems handle the extra crap on the plastic?

PaulHoule 1y ago

Polyolefin plastics like https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polypropylene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polypropylene and even https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystyrene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polystyrene are "solid hydrocarbons" but most plastics are more complex than that. One reason we quit burning trash in many places is the presence of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyvinyl_chloride which produces HCl which eats the incinerator. [1] Sure you can build a chemically tougher incinerator and add lime but practically stripping toxins from incinerators is a function of building a stripper tuned to whatever toxins are expected to be in the particular waste and frequently adding something that reacts with them. You can't really "burn up" heavy metals and certain other poisons and those either go up the stack or are part of the ash that has to be disposed of. A technology you hear about more than you hear about real implementations is "chemical recycling of plastics" through pyrolysis which implement more or less controlled combustion and captures petrochemical molecules that can be used either for fuel or to make plastics and other chemicals: these manage to capture or consume most of the products but some of the polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons that are produced when you burn plastic are practically drugs that cause cancer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo(a)pyrene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benzo(a)pyrene [1] Plenty of others contain oxygen: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_terephthalate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyethylene_terephthalate or nitrogen such: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonitrile_butadiene_styrene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acrylonitrile_butadiene_styren... and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nylon

ars 1y ago
Most disposable plastic is not PVC. Because Chlorine prolongs the life of the plastic, it's specifically used on things that you don't throw out. In any case incinerators can handle the chlorine - it's so reactive that it's actually very easy to filter. > You can't really "burn up" heavy metals There are no heavy metals in plastic, and very little in consumer waste as a whole. > are "solid hydrocarbons" but most plastics are more complex than that But those 3 you listed are the vast majority of the thrown out plastics.
- PaulHoule 1y ago
  Municipal waste has a large fraction of waste from demolished buildings which includes wood, concrete, bricks, all sorts of stuff. PVC is a significant part of that waste because it is used for siding, floors, etc. In a consolidated municipal waste stream heavy metals are a concern because they concentrate in the ash which has to be carefully stored. This kind of system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_gasification https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_gasification is supposed to encapsulate heavy metals into slag particles that aren't very mobile and can be incorporated into roads, building aggregates and such but people have struggled to make them work, part of it is that the syngas plant and whatever uses the syngas and cleans up the syngas and/or the products of using the syngas is a chemical factory that depends on the inputs having a certain composition and the composition of a municipal waste stream is not at all constant. PET is a major thrown-out plastic that's not a hydrocarbon, it's also the most recycled. Polystyrene, funny enough, is easy to chemically recycle but not through pyrolysis, it's the sort of thing you might even demo in a high school chemistry class if styrene wasn't so carcinogenic. It's never caught on because expanded polystyrene is hard to handle, transport and bring back to a chemical factory large enough to efficiently consume.
  - ars 1y ago
    How is PET not a hydrocarbon (for the purposes of burning it)? It's (C10 H8 O4)n the oxygen makes it not technically a hydrocarbon, but it will burn just fine and cleanly. Your point about building waste is valid, but I think most of that stuff goes in dumpsters and can be directed to a different wasting handling.

yellowapple 1y ago

> It's one of those environmental slam dunks with zero downsides In relation to directly burning oil for fuel, yeah. In relation to other disposal methods, there's still the pretty major downside of being dependent on a non-renewable resource, in addition to… > (Before you ask: Modern incinerators do not release any toxins from burning plastic, none.) Greenhouse gas emissions are still an issue, though, no? Or do the incinerators capture that?

toast0 1y ago
If you were going to burn oil for power, and instead you burn used plastic that for power, greenhouse gas emissions from the burning are roughly similar. However, you skip the emissions from oil extraction and transport, assuming the plastic is burned close to its use / collection.