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Ok, so you don't care. I'll pretend to believe you. Let me ask you something else then. The Biden administration was obsessed about race and sexuality. And in

Ok, so you don't care. I'll pretend to believe you. Let me ask you something else then. The Biden administration was obsessed about race and sexuality. And in this case, they blew our highest value prisoner to get somebody out of prison who unquestionably brought drugs into Russia - exceptionally rapidly, while ignoring all other prisoners, including those of high merit and arguably unjustly imprisoned. Yet this person we got out, on the double, just happened to match the exact race and sexuality characteristics that the Biden administration was obsessed with. Do you think this was just a coincidence?

mapontosevenths 1y ago
> Do you think this was just a coincidence? Yes, and there is no reason to believe otherwise that I am aware of. I provided many quotes showing that Kirk played the race, sexuality, and religion cards frequently. I beleive he did so to provoke rage and engagement, and the evidence seems to support my stance. Can you provide even a single quote that shows Biden considered her lesbianism, blackness, or other 'controversial' characteristics as the deciding factor here? From where I sit it looks like he just did what his constituency demanded. Kirk on the other hand made unsubstantiated claims about all of the above to drive engagement. > I'll pretend to believe you. Let me ask you something else then. I'm only discussing this particular case because you chose it as the most defensible from my long list. Even then, you are struggling to justify the divisive language Kirk chose. Had you chosen the one about black pilots this would be even more open and shut. Kirk wasn't stupid, but he was kind of a jerk.
- somenameforme 1y ago
  Okay, you think it's just a coincidence. I'll again continue to pretend to believe you. Now can you understand why lots of other people believe it is not a coincidence? And no, this quote is hardly the most defensible. On the contrary it's one of the more outrageous until you realize he's referencing an event that literally happened.
mapontosevenths 1y ago
> while ignoring all other prisoners, including those of high merit and arguably unjustly imprisoned. So this part stuck in my craw, and I looked it up. Almost nothing about the way you have described this situation is accurate. Biden tried to have Whelan freed as well, but Russia refused due to Whelan being considered a spy while Griner was perceived as only a low level criminal. At the time Biden was quoted saying that Russias reasons were "totally illegitimate" and that the US would "never give up" on trying to have him released. Further, Griner was only one of several prisoners Biden tried to have released during this first swap. The others were not black lesbians though, so you didn't hear about it. Biden later lived up to his word, because in 2024 Whelan was released as part of the 2024 Ankarta prisoner exchange, which Biden and Harris negotiated and which was considered to be one of the largest and most complex prisoner exchanges in history. It was NOT Trump, as you claimed earlier. The entire narrative as you know it was WRONG, and the dichotomy was even more false than you've been led to believe. Not only do I stand by my earlier statements, I feel even more convinced that Kirk was not just kind of a jerk, he was a full bore jerk. He likely knew Biden was working that deal, and turned it into race baiting hate speech anyhow... and you believed it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Bout%E2%80%93Brittney_Griner_prisoner_exchange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Bout%E2%80%93Brittney_G... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Ankara_prisoner_exchange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Ankara_prisoner_exchange
- somenameforme 1y ago
  Russia freed Griner because they got Viktor Bout in exchange. He's a polyglot international arms dealers with connections to weapons and smuggling around the world, who was known not only as the "Merchant of Death" but also as "Sanctions Buster". And as mentioned he is now literally serving as a Russian politician. Them giving away some drug addled ball player in exchange, undoubtedly had them laughing their assess off in private. And I don't mean that hyperbolically, it's difficult to imagine a more ridiculous exchange. Had Biden tried, he could have gotten vastly more for Bout. In terms of thinking about US interests, and not his election campaign, he probably should not have even been releasing Bout anyhow - since that guy is very much the real deal. Thanks for the correction on the timeline! I was probably conflating the story of Whelan with that of Marc Fogel. Though it's funny reading the details of the Ankara exchange exchange as well: ---- Freed as part of a prisoner swap between Russia and the West, the opposition figures, Andrei Pivovarov, Vladimir Kara-Murza and Ilya Yashin, had mixed feelings about the deal.[63] Kara-Murza stated that article 61 of the Constitution of Russia forbids to deport citizens if they do not approve. None of them did so or was even asked to do so. Yashin added that he is Russian, a Russian politician, and sees himself as a patriot, whose place is in Russia.[63] ---- Russia gets to deport activists who don't want to be deported, and that they couldn't otherwise constitutionally deport, and gets back, amongst others, a global FSB assassin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Ankara_prisoner_exchange#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Ankara_prisoner_exchange#...

mapontosevenths 1y ago

> Do you think this was just a coincidence? Yes, and there is no reason to believe otherwise that I am aware of. I provided many quotes showing that Kirk played the race, sexuality, and religion cards frequently. I beleive he did so to provoke rage and engagement, and the evidence seems to support my stance. Can you provide even a single quote that shows Biden considered her lesbianism, blackness, or other 'controversial' characteristics as the deciding factor here? From where I sit it looks like he just did what his constituency demanded. Kirk on the other hand made unsubstantiated claims about all of the above to drive engagement. > I'll pretend to believe you. Let me ask you something else then. I'm only discussing this particular case because you chose it as the most defensible from my long list. Even then, you are struggling to justify the divisive language Kirk chose. Had you chosen the one about black pilots this would be even more open and shut. Kirk wasn't stupid, but he was kind of a jerk.

somenameforme 1y ago
Okay, you think it's just a coincidence. I'll again continue to pretend to believe you. Now can you understand why lots of other people believe it is not a coincidence? And no, this quote is hardly the most defensible. On the contrary it's one of the more outrageous until you realize he's referencing an event that literally happened.

mapontosevenths 1y ago

> while ignoring all other prisoners, including those of high merit and arguably unjustly imprisoned. So this part stuck in my craw, and I looked it up. Almost nothing about the way you have described this situation is accurate. Biden tried to have Whelan freed as well, but Russia refused due to Whelan being considered a spy while Griner was perceived as only a low level criminal. At the time Biden was quoted saying that Russias reasons were "totally illegitimate" and that the US would "never give up" on trying to have him released. Further, Griner was only one of several prisoners Biden tried to have released during this first swap. The others were not black lesbians though, so you didn't hear about it. Biden later lived up to his word, because in 2024 Whelan was released as part of the 2024 Ankarta prisoner exchange, which Biden and Harris negotiated and which was considered to be one of the largest and most complex prisoner exchanges in history. It was NOT Trump, as you claimed earlier. The entire narrative as you know it was WRONG, and the dichotomy was even more false than you've been led to believe. Not only do I stand by my earlier statements, I feel even more convinced that Kirk was not just kind of a jerk, he was a full bore jerk. He likely knew Biden was working that deal, and turned it into race baiting hate speech anyhow... and you believed it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Bout%E2%80%93Brittney_Griner_prisoner_exchange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Bout%E2%80%93Brittney_G... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Ankara_prisoner_exchange https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Ankara_prisoner_exchange

somenameforme 1y ago
Russia freed Griner because they got Viktor Bout in exchange. He's a polyglot international arms dealers with connections to weapons and smuggling around the world, who was known not only as the "Merchant of Death" but also as "Sanctions Buster". And as mentioned he is now literally serving as a Russian politician. Them giving away some drug addled ball player in exchange, undoubtedly had them laughing their assess off in private. And I don't mean that hyperbolically, it's difficult to imagine a more ridiculous exchange. Had Biden tried, he could have gotten vastly more for Bout. In terms of thinking about US interests, and not his election campaign, he probably should not have even been releasing Bout anyhow - since that guy is very much the real deal. Thanks for the correction on the timeline! I was probably conflating the story of Whelan with that of Marc Fogel. Though it's funny reading the details of the Ankara exchange exchange as well: ---- Freed as part of a prisoner swap between Russia and the West, the opposition figures, Andrei Pivovarov, Vladimir Kara-Murza and Ilya Yashin, had mixed feelings about the deal.[63] Kara-Murza stated that article 61 of the Constitution of Russia forbids to deport citizens if they do not approve. None of them did so or was even asked to do so. Yashin added that he is Russian, a Russian politician, and sees himself as a patriot, whose place is in Russia.[63] ---- Russia gets to deport activists who don't want to be deported, and that they couldn't otherwise constitutionally deport, and gets back, amongst others, a global FSB assassin. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Ankara_prisoner_exchange#Germany https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2024_Ankara_prisoner_exchange#...