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At this point we should just create programs to promote RO filtration at home. If it's not lead then it's PFAS or some other thing. Then we have the issues with

At this point we should just create programs to promote RO filtration at home. If it's not lead then it's PFAS or some other thing. Then we have the issues with the chlorine and chloramine byproducts inhernet even in properly treated water - stuff that we already know as possible, probable, or known carcinogens.

BoredPositron 1y ago
Sounds like a band-aid solution for bad governance.
- NewJazz 1y ago
  No, it is not a band aid, it is the gold standard for water filtration. And not all water issues stem from bad governance. Sometimes there is just unwanted minerals in the water for natural reasons.
  - BoredPositron 1y ago
    I can't follow why would you opt for filtration in individual homes?
    - giantg2 1y ago
      To eliminate the distribution network risks.
    - dylan604 1y ago
      Because I have no say in the plumbing used to get the water from the source to my home. Some of that infrastructure is older than I am. Whole home RO systems would still possibly flow through plumbing I wouldn't be happy with. Undersink RO systems at the primary place providing water that I ingest seems like the best place for me knowing the details about the plumbing from this new source.
      - saulpw 1y ago
        Just use your own well! Sheesh.
        dylan604 1y ago
        And drink the chenicals that have leeched in from all of the fracking going on? Not without me RO filter.
      - BoredPositron 1y ago
        That's also a bad governance problem.
        dylan604 1y ago
        And? You keep saying this like it's an answer to a question, but it's just not a useful one. Do you go through all of life deciding that you're going to do nothing because it's a bad governance problem? Do you honestly never make changes to things you can control just because it technically should be someone else's problem? Personally, I don't have time for that. If I can make improvements for things as a band-aid fix to something that will never get fixed in any other fashion, I do it. I don't have time for BS and lazy "but it's not my problem" type of people, and you're quickly moving into that column
        BoredPositron 1y ago
        I told you in other comments that other countries fixed their water network problems. Bad water is a governance problem it doesn't help you now but if you apply a band-aid solutions or argue for it. Nothing will ever change it's that easy.
        giantg2 1y ago
        We have both asked for examples of how countries guarantee safe delivery without any chemical treatment (chlorine, ozone, etc). You have provided nothing.
  - dylan604 1y ago
    Like all of those yummy chemicals introduced to your well water after your neighbors allowed gas wells to be drilled on their property.
  - mitthrowaway2 1y ago
    The gold standard for air filtration might be a military grade gas mask or a compressed oxygen tank, but if everyone had to wear those to breathe the air outside, I'd consider it a band aid solution.
    - NewJazz 1y ago
      How is that a reasonable comparison? You don't have to carry the RO filter on your back. You think about it maybe a couple times a year when you replace the filter. Plenty of people use water filters every day. If you told them that was like wearing a gas mask whenever you go outside, they'd look at you funny.
  - Tadpole9181 1y ago
    Until you remember that now nobody is going to be able to drink water from restaurants or their workplace or the tap at the park. And that you can't filter the vegetables you eat that have been watered with contaminated water.
    - giantg2 1y ago
      Keep in mind, these restrictions have nothing to do with the environmental pollution but only the water treatment. So those veggies would still be contaminated with or without the regulation. If we moved to a paradigm of point of use purification, then the park, work, restaurant, etc would all have filters too.
  - BoredPositron 1y ago
    I still don't understand why you would opt for individual home filter systems. Doesn't make sense if you are not off the grid.
- giantg2 1y ago
  And how do you treat water that needs to travel through questionably maintained pipes without chlorine etc? Seems a much cheaper and efficient fix to utilize point of use filtration.
  - BoredPositron 1y ago
    The pipes are also bad governance. If they are your own pipes you certainly can opt for filtration instead of replacing them but as I said sounds like a band-aid.
    - giantg2 1y ago
      Show me a nation with perfectly maintained pipes that doesn't use chlorine etc. If you can't show me that, then your proposed solution is invalid.
      - ajmurmann 1y ago
        In Germany chlorine is used to treat water in the plant but it's removed before it goes into the pipe. There is a tiny residue but that's residue and not intentional to prevent issues with the pipes.
        binoct 1y ago
        What does Germany use to manage microorganism growth in it's water distribution system? As I understand cloramine/chlorine is used to keep the small amounts of microorganisms that will always be present in water and pipes from growing into a problem while it travels/sits in the distribution system.
        BoredPositron 1y ago
        https://utilityweek.co.uk/the-future-of-chlorine/ https://utilityweek.co.uk/the-future-of-chlorine/
- SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
  It sounds like a great way to reduce the standard further with the justification that RO will solve the problems, leaving an even wider class divide having clean drinking water, creating haves and have nots in something so basic it's part of the table stakes to be considered a civilized country. I say this knowing that many developed nations still struggle with this in specific circumstances, but it shouldn't be an issue nation wide.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    Hence the part about programs to help facilitate it. I'd rather see RO systems being handed out in Flint, MI vs cases of bottled water for months.
    - SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
      I agree that a flat of water bottles a month is a poor solution, but giving every house and apartment dweller a free RO system and then ensuring those system are maintained seems highly infeasible.
      - giantg2 1y ago
        Replacing the pipes can take years. There needs to be some sort of good medium-term solution. I think it's reasonably feasible to use bottles as a very short term solution while implementing the RO systems for a medium-term solution. It's possible that you could even focus on providing apartment buildings with commercial RO systems for the whole building if the pipes inside the building are not lead. The maintenance is not that much of a concern with the filter life indicators. It would seem the people who couldnt stay up on replacing filters would also not be able to plan for how many water bottles they need, meaning they likely have (or need to have) someone to help them with their life.
softwaredoug 1y ago
True but doesn’t PFAS impact ecosystems and agriculture as well?
- giantg2 1y ago
  Reducing pollution in the environment is good, but this discussion is about water quality mandates for drinking water. These are more at the water treatment facility level whereas reducing the environmental levels would happen upstream of this process.
iamtedd 1y ago
That's such a good idea. Why didn't the people of Flint, Michigan just do that in their homes? /s

BoredPositron 1y ago

Sounds like a band-aid solution for bad governance.

NewJazz 1y ago
No, it is not a band aid, it is the gold standard for water filtration. And not all water issues stem from bad governance. Sometimes there is just unwanted minerals in the water for natural reasons.
- BoredPositron 1y ago
  I can't follow why would you opt for filtration in individual homes?
  - giantg2 1y ago
    To eliminate the distribution network risks.
  - dylan604 1y ago
    Because I have no say in the plumbing used to get the water from the source to my home. Some of that infrastructure is older than I am. Whole home RO systems would still possibly flow through plumbing I wouldn't be happy with. Undersink RO systems at the primary place providing water that I ingest seems like the best place for me knowing the details about the plumbing from this new source.
    - saulpw 1y ago
      Just use your own well! Sheesh.
      - dylan604 1y ago
        And drink the chenicals that have leeched in from all of the fracking going on? Not without me RO filter.
    - BoredPositron 1y ago
      That's also a bad governance problem.
      - dylan604 1y ago
        And? You keep saying this like it's an answer to a question, but it's just not a useful one. Do you go through all of life deciding that you're going to do nothing because it's a bad governance problem? Do you honestly never make changes to things you can control just because it technically should be someone else's problem? Personally, I don't have time for that. If I can make improvements for things as a band-aid fix to something that will never get fixed in any other fashion, I do it. I don't have time for BS and lazy "but it's not my problem" type of people, and you're quickly moving into that column
        BoredPositron 1y ago
        I told you in other comments that other countries fixed their water network problems. Bad water is a governance problem it doesn't help you now but if you apply a band-aid solutions or argue for it. Nothing will ever change it's that easy.
        giantg2 1y ago
        We have both asked for examples of how countries guarantee safe delivery without any chemical treatment (chlorine, ozone, etc). You have provided nothing.
- dylan604 1y ago
  Like all of those yummy chemicals introduced to your well water after your neighbors allowed gas wells to be drilled on their property.
- mitthrowaway2 1y ago
  The gold standard for air filtration might be a military grade gas mask or a compressed oxygen tank, but if everyone had to wear those to breathe the air outside, I'd consider it a band aid solution.
  - NewJazz 1y ago
    How is that a reasonable comparison? You don't have to carry the RO filter on your back. You think about it maybe a couple times a year when you replace the filter. Plenty of people use water filters every day. If you told them that was like wearing a gas mask whenever you go outside, they'd look at you funny.
- Tadpole9181 1y ago
  Until you remember that now nobody is going to be able to drink water from restaurants or their workplace or the tap at the park. And that you can't filter the vegetables you eat that have been watered with contaminated water.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    Keep in mind, these restrictions have nothing to do with the environmental pollution but only the water treatment. So those veggies would still be contaminated with or without the regulation. If we moved to a paradigm of point of use purification, then the park, work, restaurant, etc would all have filters too.
- BoredPositron 1y ago
  I still don't understand why you would opt for individual home filter systems. Doesn't make sense if you are not off the grid.
giantg2 1y ago
And how do you treat water that needs to travel through questionably maintained pipes without chlorine etc? Seems a much cheaper and efficient fix to utilize point of use filtration.
- BoredPositron 1y ago
  The pipes are also bad governance. If they are your own pipes you certainly can opt for filtration instead of replacing them but as I said sounds like a band-aid.
  - giantg2 1y ago
    Show me a nation with perfectly maintained pipes that doesn't use chlorine etc. If you can't show me that, then your proposed solution is invalid.
    - ajmurmann 1y ago
      In Germany chlorine is used to treat water in the plant but it's removed before it goes into the pipe. There is a tiny residue but that's residue and not intentional to prevent issues with the pipes.
      - binoct 1y ago
        What does Germany use to manage microorganism growth in it's water distribution system? As I understand cloramine/chlorine is used to keep the small amounts of microorganisms that will always be present in water and pipes from growing into a problem while it travels/sits in the distribution system.
        BoredPositron 1y ago
        https://utilityweek.co.uk/the-future-of-chlorine/ https://utilityweek.co.uk/the-future-of-chlorine/
SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
It sounds like a great way to reduce the standard further with the justification that RO will solve the problems, leaving an even wider class divide having clean drinking water, creating haves and have nots in something so basic it's part of the table stakes to be considered a civilized country. I say this knowing that many developed nations still struggle with this in specific circumstances, but it shouldn't be an issue nation wide.
- giantg2 1y ago
  Hence the part about programs to help facilitate it. I'd rather see RO systems being handed out in Flint, MI vs cases of bottled water for months.
  - SketchySeaBeast 1y ago
    I agree that a flat of water bottles a month is a poor solution, but giving every house and apartment dweller a free RO system and then ensuring those system are maintained seems highly infeasible.
    - giantg2 1y ago
      Replacing the pipes can take years. There needs to be some sort of good medium-term solution. I think it's reasonably feasible to use bottles as a very short term solution while implementing the RO systems for a medium-term solution. It's possible that you could even focus on providing apartment buildings with commercial RO systems for the whole building if the pipes inside the building are not lead. The maintenance is not that much of a concern with the filter life indicators. It would seem the people who couldnt stay up on replacing filters would also not be able to plan for how many water bottles they need, meaning they likely have (or need to have) someone to help them with their life.

softwaredoug 1y ago

True but doesn’t PFAS impact ecosystems and agriculture as well?

giantg2 1y ago
Reducing pollution in the environment is good, but this discussion is about water quality mandates for drinking water. These are more at the water treatment facility level whereas reducing the environmental levels would happen upstream of this process.

iamtedd 1y ago

That's such a good idea. Why didn't the people of Flint, Michigan just do that in their homes? /s