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To be clear, I'm saying that Biden fought for Griner because she was famous, not because she enjoyed cannabis and liked the ladies or whatever it is Kirk seems

To be clear, I'm saying that Biden fought for Griner because she was famous, not because she enjoyed cannabis and liked the ladies or whatever it is Kirk seems to think. Spies aren't famous by definition. It's reasonable to disagree with Bidens choice, but it's rage bait to make it about her skin color and toilet-part preferences. That's what Kirk did for a living though.

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somenameforme 1y ago
Calling a WNBA player famous is very arguable, but I want to take a more fundamental approach to this. I really like Kirk's style of simply asking questions that make people accept their own views. There are two reasons to this - the first is because you may not even realize what you believe, and the second part is because my assumptions about what you believe may simply be wrong. Do you approve of Biden doing everything he could, including ultimately trading one of the most well known arm's dealers alive (and the person who Lord of War was based on), for her? Would you approve if the same was done for William Elliott Whitmore, in the case where he was busted bringing drugs into Russia? For context he's a random celebrity (excellent musician), mostly the equal but opposite of Griner, but certainly at least as famous. [1] - https://www.wnba.com/news/wnba-delivers-most-watched-regular-season-in-14-years-and-shatters-fan-engagement-and-on-court-records https://www.wnba.com/news/wnba-delivers-most-watched-regular...
- mapontosevenths 1y ago
  > Do you approve of Biden doing everything he could, including ultimately trading one of the most well known arm's dealers alive (and the person who Lord of War was based on), for her? Mostly I dont care at all. It's one of a thousand tiny decisions every world leader makes every day that would have been on page 15 of the newspaper 25 years ago. However, I can see why you would disapprove. It's reasonable to disagree with politicians, unless you're doing it because you're some kind of bigot. Now explain why Griners genital preference is relevant if the point wasn't to enrage people and imply that a black lesbians life is worth less than a hetero mans. Again, he was comparing people and these were the attributes he chose as important qualifiers. > Calling a WNBA player famous is very arguable Is it your stance that actual spies are more widely known than WNBA players? I mean, that's a hilarious burn towards the WNBA, but it's literally not true. It's only anecdata, but i knew more about Griner than the other person. Still do. It's also weird that you focus on this one person as if they were the only possible alternative to Griner. They weren't. That's just the one the right trotted out because it was the only one anybody had ever heard of at all. Both sides were playing politics with lives, and it was gross. It was worse that Kirk made it about how black and gay Griner was. He did it to get views and it worked, but it had a cost. >William Elliott Whitmore Frankly, I also wouldn't care about whoever he is unless someone framed it to be a comparison between a black, gay, pot smoker and a 'normal' person just to piss me off. Identity politics are evil.
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  - somenameforme 1y ago
    Ok, so you don't care. I'll pretend to believe you. Let me ask you something else then. The Biden administration was obsessed about race and sexuality. And in this case, they blew our highest value prisoner to get somebody out of prison who unquestionably brought drugs into Russia - exceptionally rapidly, while ignoring all other prisoners, including those of high merit and arguably unjustly imprisoned. Yet this person we got out, on the double, just happened to match the exact race and sexuality characteristics that the Biden administration was obsessed with. Do you think this was just a coincidence?
    - mapontosevenths 1y ago
      > Do you think this was just a coincidence? Yes, and there is no reason to believe otherwise that I am aware of. I provided many quotes showing that Kirk played the race, sexuality, and religion cards frequently. I beleive he did so to provoke rage and engagement, and the evidence seems to support my stance. Can you provide even a single quote that shows Biden considered her lesbianism, blackness, or other 'controversial' characteristics as the deciding factor here? From where I sit it looks like he just did what his constituency demanded. Kirk on the other hand made unsubstantiated claims about all of the above to drive engagement. > I'll pretend to believe you. Let me ask you something else then. I'm only discussing this particular case because you chose it as the most defensible from my long list. Even then, you are struggling to justify the divisive language Kirk chose. Had you chosen the one about black pilots this would be even more open and shut. Kirk wasn't stupid, but he was kind of a jerk.
      - somenameforme 1y ago
        Okay, you think it's just a coincidence. I'll again continue to pretend to believe you. Now can you understand why lots of other people believe it is not a coincidence? And no, this quote is hardly the most defensible. On the contrary it's one of the more outrageous until you realize he's referencing an event that literally happened.

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somenameforme 1y ago

Calling a WNBA player famous is very arguable, but I want to take a more fundamental approach to this. I really like Kirk's style of simply asking questions that make people accept their own views. There are two reasons to this - the first is because you may not even realize what you believe, and the second part is because my assumptions about what you believe may simply be wrong. Do you approve of Biden doing everything he could, including ultimately trading one of the most well known arm's dealers alive (and the person who Lord of War was based on), for her? Would you approve if the same was done for William Elliott Whitmore, in the case where he was busted bringing drugs into Russia? For context he's a random celebrity (excellent musician), mostly the equal but opposite of Griner, but certainly at least as famous. [1] - https://www.wnba.com/news/wnba-delivers-most-watched-regular-season-in-14-years-and-shatters-fan-engagement-and-on-court-records https://www.wnba.com/news/wnba-delivers-most-watched-regular...

mapontosevenths 1y ago
> Do you approve of Biden doing everything he could, including ultimately trading one of the most well known arm's dealers alive (and the person who Lord of War was based on), for her? Mostly I dont care at all. It's one of a thousand tiny decisions every world leader makes every day that would have been on page 15 of the newspaper 25 years ago. However, I can see why you would disapprove. It's reasonable to disagree with politicians, unless you're doing it because you're some kind of bigot. Now explain why Griners genital preference is relevant if the point wasn't to enrage people and imply that a black lesbians life is worth less than a hetero mans. Again, he was comparing people and these were the attributes he chose as important qualifiers. > Calling a WNBA player famous is very arguable Is it your stance that actual spies are more widely known than WNBA players? I mean, that's a hilarious burn towards the WNBA, but it's literally not true. It's only anecdata, but i knew more about Griner than the other person. Still do. It's also weird that you focus on this one person as if they were the only possible alternative to Griner. They weren't. That's just the one the right trotted out because it was the only one anybody had ever heard of at all. Both sides were playing politics with lives, and it was gross. It was worse that Kirk made it about how black and gay Griner was. He did it to get views and it worked, but it had a cost. >William Elliott Whitmore Frankly, I also wouldn't care about whoever he is unless someone framed it to be a comparison between a black, gay, pot smoker and a 'normal' person just to piss me off. Identity politics are evil.
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- somenameforme 1y ago
  Ok, so you don't care. I'll pretend to believe you. Let me ask you something else then. The Biden administration was obsessed about race and sexuality. And in this case, they blew our highest value prisoner to get somebody out of prison who unquestionably brought drugs into Russia - exceptionally rapidly, while ignoring all other prisoners, including those of high merit and arguably unjustly imprisoned. Yet this person we got out, on the double, just happened to match the exact race and sexuality characteristics that the Biden administration was obsessed with. Do you think this was just a coincidence?
  - mapontosevenths 1y ago
    > Do you think this was just a coincidence? Yes, and there is no reason to believe otherwise that I am aware of. I provided many quotes showing that Kirk played the race, sexuality, and religion cards frequently. I beleive he did so to provoke rage and engagement, and the evidence seems to support my stance. Can you provide even a single quote that shows Biden considered her lesbianism, blackness, or other 'controversial' characteristics as the deciding factor here? From where I sit it looks like he just did what his constituency demanded. Kirk on the other hand made unsubstantiated claims about all of the above to drive engagement. > I'll pretend to believe you. Let me ask you something else then. I'm only discussing this particular case because you chose it as the most defensible from my long list. Even then, you are struggling to justify the divisive language Kirk chose. Had you chosen the one about black pilots this would be even more open and shut. Kirk wasn't stupid, but he was kind of a jerk.
    - somenameforme 1y ago
      Okay, you think it's just a coincidence. I'll again continue to pretend to believe you. Now can you understand why lots of other people believe it is not a coincidence? And no, this quote is hardly the most defensible. On the contrary it's one of the more outrageous until you realize he's referencing an event that literally happened.