6 ms·

I'm not seeing where they are coming up with RNT as a cause, other than a lot of theory. Wouldn't it be a symptom of cognitive decline instead? Dementia patient

I'm not seeing where they are coming up with RNT as a cause, other than a lot of theory. Wouldn't it be a symptom of cognitive decline instead? Dementia patients, particularly those with Alzheimers, tend to become depressed because of confusion and memory loss. Wouldn't it be more likely that these depression symptoms are being caused by deteriotating brain function rather than the other way around?

IAmBroom 1y ago
They don't claim it's a cause. In fact, they explicitly state more research is needed to determine the relationship.
pessimizer 1y ago
Of course. It would be bizarre if there weren't a relationship between Lewy Body dementia, Alzheimer's, or vascular dementia (which in old people, means you've gone into heart failure) and repetitive negative thoughts. For one, you know you've got an incurable disease that will inevitably destroy your mind, and you've become one of the rare class of people for which assisted suicide has almost no controversy, it's something you're putting down payments on. For two, you can't finish thoughts. My father was just diagnosed with Parkinson's a few months ago, and he already has trouble following any conversation, and knows it. If that didn't lead to depression, that's what would be notable. And any insight that he reaches that gives him comfort might be gone an hour later. It just seems like a silly study.
- BriggyDwiggs42 1y ago
  Wait down payments? Is that metaphorical? How much does that cost?
giantg2 1y ago
I believe there have been other studies showing people with a history of depression develop dementia at higher rates. There are some that have shown the structural/signal changes that happen after longterm depression as well. These are things that occur years or decades before the dementia.
Jabrov 1y ago
No one’s saying anything about it being a cause though … association is not cause
- cenamus 1y ago
  Several comments already seem to assume that already though
awesome_dude 1y ago
This is the problem of correlation being reported in media, people read it as "causation found" When really it's "We've found an interesting association, and we are going to explore it more to see if there's an causation that we can influence"
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- osn9363739 1y ago
  I think they need to use a different word than associated. That's what's causing the confusion?
  - awesome_dude 1y ago
    Personally I think that reporting of correlations should be dropped altogether - they're very prevalent (reports on correlations) in every day news, and I think that they're damaging because they imply, or outright claim, that the discovery is that some causative effect has been observed. It's really clickbait territory sometimes (IMO)
    - bigfudge 1y ago
      I mostly agree. Although for many years the only evidence for harm from smoking was correlational.
      - awesome_dude 1y ago
        As far as I know, it still is. I'm happy to be shown otherwise.
    - jeltz 1y ago
      A lot of modern medicine is based on just correlations and an more or less educated guess. I do not think ignoring them makes sense, it is just that the reporting needs to be more clear and less sensationalist.
xattt 1y ago
The first thing that jumps out at me is the concept of perseveration (repeated fixed obsessions) that happens in dementia syndromes. It would be interesting to consider whether this is a chicken-or-egg scenario, whether individuals tended to ruminate in earlier life.
nertirs1 1y ago
True, but it still might be a good proxy to estimate how well a client is doing.
47282847 1y ago
Gwern on correlation and causation: https://gwern.net/correlation https://gwern.net/correlation

IAmBroom 1y ago

They don't claim it's a cause. In fact, they explicitly state more research is needed to determine the relationship.

pessimizer 1y ago

Of course. It would be bizarre if there weren't a relationship between Lewy Body dementia, Alzheimer's, or vascular dementia (which in old people, means you've gone into heart failure) and repetitive negative thoughts. For one, you know you've got an incurable disease that will inevitably destroy your mind, and you've become one of the rare class of people for which assisted suicide has almost no controversy, it's something you're putting down payments on. For two, you can't finish thoughts. My father was just diagnosed with Parkinson's a few months ago, and he already has trouble following any conversation, and knows it. If that didn't lead to depression, that's what would be notable. And any insight that he reaches that gives him comfort might be gone an hour later. It just seems like a silly study.

BriggyDwiggs42 1y ago
Wait down payments? Is that metaphorical? How much does that cost?

giantg2 1y ago

I believe there have been other studies showing people with a history of depression develop dementia at higher rates. There are some that have shown the structural/signal changes that happen after longterm depression as well. These are things that occur years or decades before the dementia.

Jabrov 1y ago

No one’s saying anything about it being a cause though … association is not cause

cenamus 1y ago
Several comments already seem to assume that already though

awesome_dude 1y ago

This is the problem of correlation being reported in media, people read it as "causation found" When really it's "We've found an interesting association, and we are going to explore it more to see if there's an causation that we can influence"

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
osn9363739 1y ago
I think they need to use a different word than associated. That's what's causing the confusion?
- awesome_dude 1y ago
  Personally I think that reporting of correlations should be dropped altogether - they're very prevalent (reports on correlations) in every day news, and I think that they're damaging because they imply, or outright claim, that the discovery is that some causative effect has been observed. It's really clickbait territory sometimes (IMO)
  - bigfudge 1y ago
    I mostly agree. Although for many years the only evidence for harm from smoking was correlational.
    - awesome_dude 1y ago
      As far as I know, it still is. I'm happy to be shown otherwise.
  - jeltz 1y ago
    A lot of modern medicine is based on just correlations and an more or less educated guess. I do not think ignoring them makes sense, it is just that the reporting needs to be more clear and less sensationalist.

xattt 1y ago

The first thing that jumps out at me is the concept of perseveration (repeated fixed obsessions) that happens in dementia syndromes. It would be interesting to consider whether this is a chicken-or-egg scenario, whether individuals tended to ruminate in earlier life.

nertirs1 1y ago

True, but it still might be a good proxy to estimate how well a client is doing.

47282847 1y ago

Gwern on correlation and causation: https://gwern.net/correlation https://gwern.net/correlation