4 ms·

Absurd ideas like "applications shouldn't be able to spy on or manipulate each other without explicit permission from the user".

yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago
Nobody said anything about that. Is there any reason that Xorg couldn't tack on a permission system, other than that it would be inelegant?
- fanf2 1y ago
  There were X11 extensions that implemented access controls, eg in TrustedSolaris.
- cies 1y ago
  > Is there any reason that Xorg couldn't tack on a permission system, other than that it would be inelegant? That's the whole reason for Wayland's existence: such things were not "easily" possible... Linux+Xorg desktop would be hopelessly insecure for ever because these security features were deemed too hard to the point of not being "worth it". So Wayland was started. Someone is developing XLibre, and Xorg fork. It may be pulled off, but I doubt it. Making Xorg safe was tried many times for many safety-holes.
  - antisol 1y ago
    > Linux+Xorg desktop would be hopelessly insecure for ever People keep repeating this claim over and over, but in nearly 30 years as a Linux user and tech news reader, I've seen exactly zero news articles about an epidemic of Linux keyloggers. > Making Xorg safe was tried many times for many safety-holes * citation needed
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
nurettin 1y ago
"There should be global hooks and applications should be able to register themselves should they wish" would solve all these cases, but horse blinders are also very important to wear.
roenxi 1y ago
Wayland, traditionally, has not believed that. It believed "applications shouldn't be able to spy on or manipulate each other" and doesn't give users any mechanism to suggest that they might have permission to do so because the idea of that happening was just not on their radar. I'm not sure about the modern state of Wayland but last time I saw it the situation was terribly messy and I was forced back to X11 because I rely on screensharing to do my job properly.
- ac29 1y ago
  > I was forced back to X11 because I rely on screensharing to do my job properly. Wayland screensharing has worked for a long time. I remember using it early in the pandemic when the entire working world seemed to move to Zoom/etc for meetings. So, at least ~5 years?
  - light_hue_1 1y ago
    This is a great example of how horrible the situation is under Wayland. Screen sharing sometimes works. Sometimes doesn't. For example: https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/1ebwaz4/is_wayland_screen_sharing_working/ https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/1ebwaz4/is_wayland_scr... There are countless such threads. Something that always worked perfectly out of the box now has endless workarounds per compositor/desktop system that you use.
    - antisol 1y ago
      Exactly this. Somehow the wayland evangelists don't seem to understand that it's not acceptable that something that was trivial to do and reliable for decades is suddenly buggy and broken half the time. I RESOLVED IT by using the x11 protocol Lol, yep, that's the solution for most of these issues.
Lammy 1y ago
I gave my explicit permission by choosing to run the software in the first place.

yjftsjthsd-h 1y ago

Nobody said anything about that. Is there any reason that Xorg couldn't tack on a permission system, other than that it would be inelegant?

fanf2 1y ago
There were X11 extensions that implemented access controls, eg in TrustedSolaris.
cies 1y ago
> Is there any reason that Xorg couldn't tack on a permission system, other than that it would be inelegant? That's the whole reason for Wayland's existence: such things were not "easily" possible... Linux+Xorg desktop would be hopelessly insecure for ever because these security features were deemed too hard to the point of not being "worth it". So Wayland was started. Someone is developing XLibre, and Xorg fork. It may be pulled off, but I doubt it. Making Xorg safe was tried many times for many safety-holes.
- antisol 1y ago
  > Linux+Xorg desktop would be hopelessly insecure for ever People keep repeating this claim over and over, but in nearly 30 years as a Linux user and tech news reader, I've seen exactly zero news articles about an epidemic of Linux keyloggers. > Making Xorg safe was tried many times for many safety-holes * citation needed

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

nurettin 1y ago

"There should be global hooks and applications should be able to register themselves should they wish" would solve all these cases, but horse blinders are also very important to wear.

roenxi 1y ago

Wayland, traditionally, has not believed that. It believed "applications shouldn't be able to spy on or manipulate each other" and doesn't give users any mechanism to suggest that they might have permission to do so because the idea of that happening was just not on their radar. I'm not sure about the modern state of Wayland but last time I saw it the situation was terribly messy and I was forced back to X11 because I rely on screensharing to do my job properly.

ac29 1y ago
> I was forced back to X11 because I rely on screensharing to do my job properly. Wayland screensharing has worked for a long time. I remember using it early in the pandemic when the entire working world seemed to move to Zoom/etc for meetings. So, at least ~5 years?
- light_hue_1 1y ago
  This is a great example of how horrible the situation is under Wayland. Screen sharing sometimes works. Sometimes doesn't. For example: https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/1ebwaz4/is_wayland_screen_sharing_working/ https://www.reddit.com/r/kde/comments/1ebwaz4/is_wayland_scr... There are countless such threads. Something that always worked perfectly out of the box now has endless workarounds per compositor/desktop system that you use.
  - antisol 1y ago
    Exactly this. Somehow the wayland evangelists don't seem to understand that it's not acceptable that something that was trivial to do and reliable for decades is suddenly buggy and broken half the time. I RESOLVED IT by using the x11 protocol Lol, yep, that's the solution for most of these issues.

Lammy 1y ago

I gave my explicit permission by choosing to run the software in the first place.