6 ms·

This is well written, concise, and outlines a problem that most people would call “political” without being hostile to other people (while still making it clear

by parsimo2010 1y ago

This is well written, concise, and outlines a problem that most people would call “political” without being hostile to other people (while still making it clear what the problem is). Great job, I wish we had more opinion pieces like this. Also, I agree 100%. Some people don’t like foreigners at US schools, thinking that those foreigners are taking spots away from worthy Americans. I think the only thing worse is if the foreigners stop wanting to come to US schools because of the implications about how far the American education system has fallen.

cs_throwaway 1y ago
This won't convince anyone who wants to pause all immigration. However, if you want to allow some immigration, you can make a case PhDs in computer science from Carnegie Mellon, which is what he's talking about. These are kids who were already world-class coming in and become even better by the time they graduate. It is paid for by taxpayers, for which they should be grateful, and it is done in a context that builds admiration for the country.
foxyv 1y ago
As I understand it, foreign students pretty much pay for a lot of US Schools. Anyone who has had to pay out of state tuition knows what's happening. So essentially, the more foreign students, the more spots for American students. https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/23/upshot/harvard-trump-international-students.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/23/upshot/harvard-trump-inte...
- cs_throwaway 1y ago
  The "kids" in the original article are likely PhD students. They are not paying tuition. You and I are likely paying for their education with taxes. (This is likely a small part of the overall higher education picture.)
alephnerd 1y ago
And, more critically - if foreigners are deciding to take up faculty positions in their home countries. Countries like India, Vietnam, and South Korea have begun replicating the Chinese Thousand Talents program to attract their diasporas back to domestic academia. Significant domains of CS such as HPC/Systems, Networking, OS internals, etc are heavily dependent on faculty, graduate students, and post-docs who are all on some sort of visa. And increasingly, at least amongst Indians, becuase the backlogs for US citizenship are insane, a number of those people have been taking sweetheart positions at INIs like the new IITs with almost US$100k in public-private lab startup grants on top of a $20k salary (tax free due to the income tax changes) with free housing and car and complete autonomy to consult with private sector players without IP entanglement (one of the biggest headaches for public private STEM R&D partnerships in the US). Vietnam is doing something similar as well to attract Vietnamese diaspora in SK and Japan, along with Viet Kieu in America and Australia. A nativist academic culture in STEM in the US would completely destroy any R&D capacity that even exists today.
- XorNot 1y ago
  This is one of the reasons India has a civilian spaceflight program. The obvious overlap with military technology aside, it's a way to retain and increase the institutional knowledge within India across a lot of areas.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    This is why all regional powers have a civilian space flight program - the same thing you mentioned but also it allows you to sidestep some international treaties around testing.
  - anukin 1y ago
    Indian spaceflight program done by ISRO have very few people from IITs or any of the so called elite colleges. Unlike china Indian colleges are really backward due to lack of research funding and a coaching industry which have gamified the entrance exams.
    - alephnerd 1y ago
      > Indian spaceflight program done by ISRO have very few people from IITs or any of the so called elite colleges The bulk of recruitment at ISRO has always been happening at the Indian Institute of Space Science and Technology (IIST) and the Indian Institute of Sciences (IISc) - not IITs. Even getting into an IIST or IISc is almost as difficult as getting into an old IIT based on the JEE cutoffs. Both India and China have specialized institutions dedicated to subfields that end up getting the bulk of R&D funding in said subfields, for example, Petroleum Engineering and the China University of Petroleum and the Indian Institute of Petroleum Engineering, or in mining enigneeing, the China University of Mining and Technology and the Indian School of Mines (now IIT Dhanbad). > Unlike china Indian colleges are really backward due to lack of research funding and a coaching industry which have gamified the entrance exams China also bases acceptance on entrance exams - the Gaokao is equally as competitive as the JEE Advanced. The exact same gamification of entrance exams and coaching centers is sadly the norm in China as well, despite the Xi admin's initial attempts to crack down on it. Additonally, Chinese R&D funding is also stratified the same way Indian R&D funding is. The equivalent of a government engineering college in both China and India would be receiving relatively limited funding or autonomy, but a Double First Class University in China or an INI in India well get the first pick of research grants and subsidizes. If there is a promising professor at a mid-tier program, they are likely affiliated and getting their funding via affiliation to a national academy like the Chinese Academy of Sciences.
dclowd9901 1y ago
I understand the need to frame arguments in an objective and clinical way. At the same time, it's frustrating because it just feels like being so distant emotionally doesn't drive deep enough into the way the current environment shakes so many people to their cores. It's an egregious assault on individual experiences and there's no real way to sugarcoat that. You can deport illegal immigrants without taking away their dignity and without frightening the ever living shit out of everyone. But this isn't that. The intention is fear.
- itsoktocry 1y ago
  The fact that you think Trump is running a scam on foolish people, while the natural state of things is an altruistic Democratic government is why you lost and will likely continue to lose. The "Democratic"/"left wing" platform is not as popular as you believe; not in the US, not in England, not in Canada, not in Germany... This all stems from backlash against those policies. You need to fix the issues, not tell people "you voted for the wrong guy".
  - spwa4 1y ago
    Exactly. People forget this, and "forget" this, but democracy's power is not based on picking the best (or even merely not disastrous) rulers. Italy, Germany and more recently Russia illustrate that pretty disastrous choices have been made by democratic institutions (I don't mean the Ukraine war, I mean electing Putin in the first place). Democracy's power is almost entirely in voting out bad rulers without destroying the entire country. That's why a great deal of people's ideas of democracy are ridiculous. For example, democracy can tolerate the existence of fake news or terrible/fake science, just go read newspapers from the interwar period. Take an alternative of the islamist gulf monarchies. They'll end in destruction and fire, war or revolution, because that's the only way to replace the government, so you can pretty much guarantee that's what will (eventually) happen. The simple truth one hopes America, including democrats, can embrace is that Biden was bad, and allowing him to cling to power was horrible (if he'd made Ms. Harris president halfway through his presidency, THAT might have worked). What was done during the election ... seriously? Yes, Trump is worse (and he'll be voted out, or at least take the GOP down, like he did before), but that doesn't matter in most people's minds. Besides, taking the "least bad" option, what democrats generally advocate these days, is how Italy and Germany destroyed their democracy (Mussulini and Hitler were put in power, not elected, because any other choice would have resulted in civil war. How that worked? Easy: they instructed their supporters to fight until they were the least bad option, and the police couldn't keep control. Which is why I think countries like France are playing with fire since every extreme party in France and Germany, the various extreme left, right, green is trying the same playbook now: elect them or they sabotage the entire country. Why? Same reason Hitler did it: he only had maybe 20% of people really behind him. But 20% of the population can sabotage the entire country, easily. Of course, Hitler was the only one doing it, and these parties are not)
sfifs 1y ago
We're starting to see the impact. A number of our older peers have kids beginning to graduate high school or undergrad. I personally know of 3 situations this fall/next spring already where very talented kids have chosen European schools this year over Ivy League admits

cs_throwaway 1y ago

This won't convince anyone who wants to pause all immigration. However, if you want to allow some immigration, you can make a case PhDs in computer science from Carnegie Mellon, which is what he's talking about. These are kids who were already world-class coming in and become even better by the time they graduate. It is paid for by taxpayers, for which they should be grateful, and it is done in a context that builds admiration for the country.

foxyv 1y ago

As I understand it, foreign students pretty much pay for a lot of US Schools. Anyone who has had to pay out of state tuition knows what's happening. So essentially, the more foreign students, the more spots for American students. https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/23/upshot/harvard-trump-international-students.html https://www.nytimes.com/2025/05/23/upshot/harvard-trump-inte...

cs_throwaway 1y ago
The "kids" in the original article are likely PhD students. They are not paying tuition. You and I are likely paying for their education with taxes. (This is likely a small part of the overall higher education picture.)

alephnerd 1y ago

And, more critically - if foreigners are deciding to take up faculty positions in their home countries. Countries like India, Vietnam, and South Korea have begun replicating the Chinese Thousand Talents program to attract their diasporas back to domestic academia. Significant domains of CS such as HPC/Systems, Networking, OS internals, etc are heavily dependent on faculty, graduate students, and post-docs who are all on some sort of visa. And increasingly, at least amongst Indians, becuase the backlogs for US citizenship are insane, a number of those people have been taking sweetheart positions at INIs like the new IITs with almost US$100k in public-private lab startup grants on top of a $20k salary (tax free due to the income tax changes) with free housing and car and complete autonomy to consult with private sector players without IP entanglement (one of the biggest headaches for public private STEM R&D partnerships in the US). Vietnam is doing something similar as well to attract Vietnamese diaspora in SK and Japan, along with Viet Kieu in America and Australia. A nativist academic culture in STEM in the US would completely destroy any R&D capacity that even exists today.

XorNot 1y ago
This is one of the reasons India has a civilian spaceflight program. The obvious overlap with military technology aside, it's a way to retain and increase the institutional knowledge within India across a lot of areas.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  This is why all regional powers have a civilian space flight program - the same thing you mentioned but also it allows you to sidestep some international treaties around testing.
- anukin 1y ago
  Indian spaceflight program done by ISRO have very few people from IITs or any of the so called elite colleges. Unlike china Indian colleges are really backward due to lack of research funding and a coaching industry which have gamified the entrance exams.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    > Indian spaceflight program done by ISRO have very few people from IITs or any of the so called elite colleges The bulk of recruitment at ISRO has always been happening at the Indian Institute of Space Science and Technology (IIST) and the Indian Institute of Sciences (IISc) - not IITs. Even getting into an IIST or IISc is almost as difficult as getting into an old IIT based on the JEE cutoffs. Both India and China have specialized institutions dedicated to subfields that end up getting the bulk of R&D funding in said subfields, for example, Petroleum Engineering and the China University of Petroleum and the Indian Institute of Petroleum Engineering, or in mining enigneeing, the China University of Mining and Technology and the Indian School of Mines (now IIT Dhanbad). > Unlike china Indian colleges are really backward due to lack of research funding and a coaching industry which have gamified the entrance exams China also bases acceptance on entrance exams - the Gaokao is equally as competitive as the JEE Advanced. The exact same gamification of entrance exams and coaching centers is sadly the norm in China as well, despite the Xi admin's initial attempts to crack down on it. Additonally, Chinese R&D funding is also stratified the same way Indian R&D funding is. The equivalent of a government engineering college in both China and India would be receiving relatively limited funding or autonomy, but a Double First Class University in China or an INI in India well get the first pick of research grants and subsidizes. If there is a promising professor at a mid-tier program, they are likely affiliated and getting their funding via affiliation to a national academy like the Chinese Academy of Sciences.

dclowd9901 1y ago

I understand the need to frame arguments in an objective and clinical way. At the same time, it's frustrating because it just feels like being so distant emotionally doesn't drive deep enough into the way the current environment shakes so many people to their cores. It's an egregious assault on individual experiences and there's no real way to sugarcoat that. You can deport illegal immigrants without taking away their dignity and without frightening the ever living shit out of everyone. But this isn't that. The intention is fear.

itsoktocry 1y ago
The fact that you think Trump is running a scam on foolish people, while the natural state of things is an altruistic Democratic government is why you lost and will likely continue to lose. The "Democratic"/"left wing" platform is not as popular as you believe; not in the US, not in England, not in Canada, not in Germany... This all stems from backlash against those policies. You need to fix the issues, not tell people "you voted for the wrong guy".
- spwa4 1y ago
  Exactly. People forget this, and "forget" this, but democracy's power is not based on picking the best (or even merely not disastrous) rulers. Italy, Germany and more recently Russia illustrate that pretty disastrous choices have been made by democratic institutions (I don't mean the Ukraine war, I mean electing Putin in the first place). Democracy's power is almost entirely in voting out bad rulers without destroying the entire country. That's why a great deal of people's ideas of democracy are ridiculous. For example, democracy can tolerate the existence of fake news or terrible/fake science, just go read newspapers from the interwar period. Take an alternative of the islamist gulf monarchies. They'll end in destruction and fire, war or revolution, because that's the only way to replace the government, so you can pretty much guarantee that's what will (eventually) happen. The simple truth one hopes America, including democrats, can embrace is that Biden was bad, and allowing him to cling to power was horrible (if he'd made Ms. Harris president halfway through his presidency, THAT might have worked). What was done during the election ... seriously? Yes, Trump is worse (and he'll be voted out, or at least take the GOP down, like he did before), but that doesn't matter in most people's minds. Besides, taking the "least bad" option, what democrats generally advocate these days, is how Italy and Germany destroyed their democracy (Mussulini and Hitler were put in power, not elected, because any other choice would have resulted in civil war. How that worked? Easy: they instructed their supporters to fight until they were the least bad option, and the police couldn't keep control. Which is why I think countries like France are playing with fire since every extreme party in France and Germany, the various extreme left, right, green is trying the same playbook now: elect them or they sabotage the entire country. Why? Same reason Hitler did it: he only had maybe 20% of people really behind him. But 20% of the population can sabotage the entire country, easily. Of course, Hitler was the only one doing it, and these parties are not)

sfifs 1y ago

We're starting to see the impact. A number of our older peers have kids beginning to graduate high school or undergrad. I personally know of 3 situations this fall/next spring already where very talented kids have chosen European schools this year over Ivy League admits