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by mapontosevenths 1y ago

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vitanuova 1y ago
You posting this is truly unempathic... soooooo?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
reliabilityguy 1y ago
> I would argue that the only people we do not owe empathy to are those who oppose empathy, as Kirk did. The full quote said that instead of empathy one should think about sympathy. However, with the full quote the argument looks weak. Edit: here is a link https://m.youtube.com/shorts/vojXvj2B6RI https://m.youtube.com/shorts/vojXvj2B6RI
spwa4 1y ago
Does that, in your mind, apply to everyone? For example, would it be okay to execute a few of the people people who protested in support of Oct 8 just when it happened, long before there was any reaction? I would also like to point out there is a very large difference between firing and killing. So no, people getting fired is not somehow equivalent to a killing. There are incredible numbers of people who support, even celebrate deaths. And we're not even talking about the other difficulties, like perspective (e.g. the death of a Russian father fighting in Ukraine, do you celebrate or mourn?)
bilvar 1y ago
[flagged]
- zahlman 1y ago
  I understand your distress, but this is not an appropriate way to point out the issue with the argument.
  - bilvar 1y ago
    I'm just sick of lies and propaganda like this leading to the brutal murder of people. Actual brutal murder, not imagined.
    - tomhow 1y ago
      Sure, but the HN guidelines apply to us all, no matter who or what you're commenting about. If someone else posts a comment that's against the guidelines, flag it and/or email us (hn@ycombinator.com ). If you disagree with it, respond in a way that is within the guidelines, or don't respond at all, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
zahlman 1y ago
This is a talking point I have seen repeated constantly throughout the discussion. It does not accurately represent the point being made, as explained in the sibling comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45234349 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45234349 . I actually have witnessed the concept of empathy used on many occasions for a sort of rhetorical abuse, by alternately demanding it of people and then denying that they are fundamentally capable of it in a given situation due to identity differences. In the literal sense, empathy requires (https://www.simplypsychology.org/sympathy-empathy-compassion.html https://www.simplypsychology.org/sympathy-empathy-compassion...) a deeper understanding of negative emotions based in "putting oneself in another's shoes"; but many will argue that this simply can't be properly done. A simple example is that men are accused of lacking "empathy" for women who feel endangered in social/dating circumstances where the man might feel empowered. But we simply cannot spontaneously change our perspective on a given circumstance. (And, of course, it is treated as offensive to turn the example around; but that's another discussion.) Indeed, your empathy is not being expected here by anyone. But your sympathy is. You are being expected to treat murder as a crime and the loss of a healthy adult life as a tragedy. Kirk had many ideas about how people should go about their lives that you might strongly disagree with, or even consider unconscionable. He also had many ideas about the reality of how businesses and other institutions operate, or about what is fair in that context, similarly. But from what I can tell, nothing he ever said rose to the level of supposing that ending someone's life is an appropriate response to that person having the wrong ideas. (And the bit you're quoting is so incredibly far from that, that it's hard to assume good faith when people make this argument.) His killer apparently disagreed. And many people on social media also seem to disagree, although they haven't taken action on it.
tomhow 1y ago
Please don't post flamebait or inflammatory rhetoric on HN. The guidelines are clear about this: Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents. Omit internet tropes. Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45234112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45234112 and marked it off topic.

[flagged]

vitanuova 1y ago

You posting this is truly unempathic... soooooo?

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

reliabilityguy 1y ago

> I would argue that the only people we do not owe empathy to are those who oppose empathy, as Kirk did. The full quote said that instead of empathy one should think about sympathy. However, with the full quote the argument looks weak. Edit: here is a link https://m.youtube.com/shorts/vojXvj2B6RI https://m.youtube.com/shorts/vojXvj2B6RI

spwa4 1y ago

Does that, in your mind, apply to everyone? For example, would it be okay to execute a few of the people people who protested in support of Oct 8 just when it happened, long before there was any reaction? I would also like to point out there is a very large difference between firing and killing. So no, people getting fired is not somehow equivalent to a killing. There are incredible numbers of people who support, even celebrate deaths. And we're not even talking about the other difficulties, like perspective (e.g. the death of a Russian father fighting in Ukraine, do you celebrate or mourn?)

bilvar 1y ago

[flagged]

zahlman 1y ago
I understand your distress, but this is not an appropriate way to point out the issue with the argument.
- bilvar 1y ago
  I'm just sick of lies and propaganda like this leading to the brutal murder of people. Actual brutal murder, not imagined.
  - tomhow 1y ago
    Sure, but the HN guidelines apply to us all, no matter who or what you're commenting about. If someone else posts a comment that's against the guidelines, flag it and/or email us (hn@ycombinator.com ). If you disagree with it, respond in a way that is within the guidelines, or don't respond at all, please. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

zahlman 1y ago

This is a talking point I have seen repeated constantly throughout the discussion. It does not accurately represent the point being made, as explained in the sibling comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45234349 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45234349 . I actually have witnessed the concept of empathy used on many occasions for a sort of rhetorical abuse, by alternately demanding it of people and then denying that they are fundamentally capable of it in a given situation due to identity differences. In the literal sense, empathy requires (https://www.simplypsychology.org/sympathy-empathy-compassion.html https://www.simplypsychology.org/sympathy-empathy-compassion...) a deeper understanding of negative emotions based in "putting oneself in another's shoes"; but many will argue that this simply can't be properly done. A simple example is that men are accused of lacking "empathy" for women who feel endangered in social/dating circumstances where the man might feel empowered. But we simply cannot spontaneously change our perspective on a given circumstance. (And, of course, it is treated as offensive to turn the example around; but that's another discussion.) Indeed, your empathy is not being expected here by anyone. But your sympathy is. You are being expected to treat murder as a crime and the loss of a healthy adult life as a tragedy. Kirk had many ideas about how people should go about their lives that you might strongly disagree with, or even consider unconscionable. He also had many ideas about the reality of how businesses and other institutions operate, or about what is fair in that context, similarly. But from what I can tell, nothing he ever said rose to the level of supposing that ending someone's life is an appropriate response to that person having the wrong ideas. (And the bit you're quoting is so incredibly far from that, that it's hard to assume good faith when people make this argument.) His killer apparently disagreed. And many people on social media also seem to disagree, although they haven't taken action on it.

tomhow 1y ago

Please don't post flamebait or inflammatory rhetoric on HN. The guidelines are clear about this: Comments should get more thoughtful and substantive, not less, as a topic gets more divisive. Eschew flamebait. Avoid generic tangents. Omit internet tropes. Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45234112 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45234112 and marked it off topic.