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Shutting down nuclear was a pretty popular policy. But that aside, what the Energiewende was not about was removing obstacles to building out energy infrastruct

Shutting down nuclear was a pretty popular policy. But that aside, what the Energiewende was not about was removing obstacles to building out energy infrastructure rapidly (e.g., the delay on the north-south connections).

gf000 1y ago
Well, populism is no good reason to do something dumb. Maybe laymen should not directly have a say over experts in deeply technical discussions.
- RandomLensman 1y ago
  Yes, not supporting energy infrastructure construction better was a mistake. Removing what would be nasty targets in a war perhaps in the current light not so much.
  - mpweiher 1y ago
    No shutting down cheap, reliable, CO₂ free and already paid for energy infrastructure was. That's about as idiotic as you can get. And simply by not destroying this already existing infrastructure you wouldn't even have needed north-south links.
    - RandomLensman 1y ago
      End of live would have come sooner or later anyway. But why take the risk of fission reactors becoming targets in a war?
      - pqtyw 1y ago
        Because presumably France for instance would likely view someone blowing up one of their plants the same way as a nuclear attack. Given their nuclear deterrence policies that would end up badly for both sides
        RandomLensman 1y ago
        Germany doesn't have a nuclear deterrence and in the event of a nuclear war still might want to avoid having particular bad targets. I'd rather put any new money for nuclear into fusion instead of building large fission reactors.
        natmaka 1y ago
        A nuclear plant may be hit by despair, even if it isn't the target, and in any case finding who hit it may be difficult. Right now in Ukraine...
        mpweiher 1y ago
        Right now in Ukraine, the nuclear plants are what's keeping the grid alive. They are extremely tough targets, and fairly easy to defend.
        natmaka 1y ago
        It is not about blackouts but about the risk induced by a nuclear plant in a warzone. That's what International Atomic Energy Agency's (UN agency in charge of civilian nuclear) boss said about it: "Director General Grossi reiterated his deep concern about the apparent increased use of drones near nuclear power plants since early this year, saying such weaponry posed a clear risk to nuclear safety and security" "any military attack on a nuclear site – with or without drones – jeopardizes nuclear safety and must stop immediately" https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/update-303-iaea-director-general-statement-on-situation-in-ukraine https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/update-303-iae...
        mpweiher 1y ago
        > It is not about blackouts but about the risk induced by a nuclear plant in a warzone. What concrete risks are those? And of course the IEAE is concerned about nuclear safety. That's their job.
      - mpweiher 1y ago
        Later. Reactors in the US, on which the German designs are based, have already received their extensions to 80 years. Experts see no particular problems in extending that to 100 years or even further. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nuclear-power-plant-aging-reactor-replacement-/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nuclear-power-pla... https://www.utilitydive.com/news/how-long-can-a-nuclear-plant-run-regulators-consider-100-years/597294/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/how-long-can-a-nuclear-plan... https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/whats-lifespan-nuclear-reactor-much-longer-you-might-think https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/whats-lifespan-nuclear-re... Fission reactors are not very useful targets in war. In Ukraine, their fleet of nuclear reactors are what's keeping the electricity grid running. And they are building new ones. In war time.
    - natmaka 1y ago
      Germany could have decarbonized faster by maintaining its nuclear power, but only to a limited extent because the bulk of the coal (especially lignite, a high CO2 emitter) is burned to generate electricity in the former East German regions, which have been devoid of nuclear power since 1995 (Soviet reactors were shut down due to their unsafety). Therefore, all active reactors were located in West Germany, and there is no adequate high-voltage line capable of transporting their output to the East. At its peak (in 1999), nuclear power produced only 31% of Germany's electricity, itself less than 25% of the energy consumed (even considering primary energy, it only provided 12.7%), and by 2011 (Fukushima...), it was producing less than 18% of the electricity. Moreover, in the East, coal-fired power plants have long produced high-pressure steam for district heating (industry and heating many premises), which a remote reactor cannot provide. To claim that Germany shut down its reactors for no reason (after Fukushima...) or that only a minority of environmentalists decided to do so is misleading as, in Germany, all political parties close reactors, and most reactors were not closed by "Greens". Furthermore, this nuclear potential would result in higher costs and dependency since it would have replaced part of the huge coal industry, which is very difficult to get rid of.
      - mpweiher 1y ago
        > Germany could have decarbonized faster by maintaining its nuclear power Precisely. > but only to a limited extent because the bulk of the coal (especially lignite, a high CO2 emitter) is burned to generate electricity in the former East German regions, Huh? Not shutting down the existing nuclear plants is a pure positive and does not prevent you from doing other things. Such as building out renewables and/or nuclear plants in the east. For the money we wasted on intermittent renewables so far, we could have built at least 50 reactors even at the inflated cost of the EPR prototype at Olkiluoto 3. Or 100 inflation-adjusted Konvois. So way more than enough. Nuclear power is well-suited for district heating and industrial heat applications, unlike solar and wind. > To claim that Germany shut down its reactors for no reason Nobody claimed that. Germany shut down its reactors for idiotic reasons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiophobia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiophobia All West German reactors would have survived the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami perfectly fine had they been at the site of Fukushima. And we don't have Tsunamis in Germany. How does shutting down those plants make sense again? When answering, consider that Japan is reactivating its nuclear plants. It's time for Germany to admit its mistake on nuclear energy https://www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2024/12/26/world/germany-nuclear-energy/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2024/12/26/world/ger... > or that only a minority of environmentalists decided to do so is misleading as, Again, such a good thing that that claim wasn't made in this thread. Or are you misleadingly claiming that it was? > misleading as, in Germany, all political parties close reactors, and most reactors were not closed by "Greens". Who "closed" reactors, now that actually is misleading for a change. The law that required nuclear reactors to be closed was passed by the Red/Green coalition in 2002. Germany happens to be a country with the rule of law, so successor governments can't just act on whim, they are bound by the law of the land. Oh, and it was the Greens who made the Atomausstieg the primary condition for their coalition with the SPD. So while it is correct that all parties are somewhat to blame, to claim that they are equally to blame is ahistorical nonsense and quite misleading. > Furthermore, this nuclear potential would result in higher costs and dependency That is also not true.

gf000 1y ago

Well, populism is no good reason to do something dumb. Maybe laymen should not directly have a say over experts in deeply technical discussions.

RandomLensman 1y ago
Yes, not supporting energy infrastructure construction better was a mistake. Removing what would be nasty targets in a war perhaps in the current light not so much.
- mpweiher 1y ago
  No shutting down cheap, reliable, CO₂ free and already paid for energy infrastructure was. That's about as idiotic as you can get. And simply by not destroying this already existing infrastructure you wouldn't even have needed north-south links.
  - RandomLensman 1y ago
    End of live would have come sooner or later anyway. But why take the risk of fission reactors becoming targets in a war?
    - pqtyw 1y ago
      Because presumably France for instance would likely view someone blowing up one of their plants the same way as a nuclear attack. Given their nuclear deterrence policies that would end up badly for both sides
      - RandomLensman 1y ago
        Germany doesn't have a nuclear deterrence and in the event of a nuclear war still might want to avoid having particular bad targets. I'd rather put any new money for nuclear into fusion instead of building large fission reactors.
      - natmaka 1y ago
        A nuclear plant may be hit by despair, even if it isn't the target, and in any case finding who hit it may be difficult. Right now in Ukraine...
        mpweiher 1y ago
        Right now in Ukraine, the nuclear plants are what's keeping the grid alive. They are extremely tough targets, and fairly easy to defend.
        natmaka 1y ago
        It is not about blackouts but about the risk induced by a nuclear plant in a warzone. That's what International Atomic Energy Agency's (UN agency in charge of civilian nuclear) boss said about it: "Director General Grossi reiterated his deep concern about the apparent increased use of drones near nuclear power plants since early this year, saying such weaponry posed a clear risk to nuclear safety and security" "any military attack on a nuclear site – with or without drones – jeopardizes nuclear safety and must stop immediately" https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/update-303-iaea-director-general-statement-on-situation-in-ukraine https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/update-303-iae...
        mpweiher 1y ago
        > It is not about blackouts but about the risk induced by a nuclear plant in a warzone. What concrete risks are those? And of course the IEAE is concerned about nuclear safety. That's their job.
    - mpweiher 1y ago
      Later. Reactors in the US, on which the German designs are based, have already received their extensions to 80 years. Experts see no particular problems in extending that to 100 years or even further. https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nuclear-power-plant-aging-reactor-replacement-/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nuclear-power-pla... https://www.utilitydive.com/news/how-long-can-a-nuclear-plant-run-regulators-consider-100-years/597294/ https://www.utilitydive.com/news/how-long-can-a-nuclear-plan... https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/whats-lifespan-nuclear-reactor-much-longer-you-might-think https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/whats-lifespan-nuclear-re... Fission reactors are not very useful targets in war. In Ukraine, their fleet of nuclear reactors are what's keeping the electricity grid running. And they are building new ones. In war time.
  - natmaka 1y ago
    Germany could have decarbonized faster by maintaining its nuclear power, but only to a limited extent because the bulk of the coal (especially lignite, a high CO2 emitter) is burned to generate electricity in the former East German regions, which have been devoid of nuclear power since 1995 (Soviet reactors were shut down due to their unsafety). Therefore, all active reactors were located in West Germany, and there is no adequate high-voltage line capable of transporting their output to the East. At its peak (in 1999), nuclear power produced only 31% of Germany's electricity, itself less than 25% of the energy consumed (even considering primary energy, it only provided 12.7%), and by 2011 (Fukushima...), it was producing less than 18% of the electricity. Moreover, in the East, coal-fired power plants have long produced high-pressure steam for district heating (industry and heating many premises), which a remote reactor cannot provide. To claim that Germany shut down its reactors for no reason (after Fukushima...) or that only a minority of environmentalists decided to do so is misleading as, in Germany, all political parties close reactors, and most reactors were not closed by "Greens". Furthermore, this nuclear potential would result in higher costs and dependency since it would have replaced part of the huge coal industry, which is very difficult to get rid of.
    - mpweiher 1y ago
      > Germany could have decarbonized faster by maintaining its nuclear power Precisely. > but only to a limited extent because the bulk of the coal (especially lignite, a high CO2 emitter) is burned to generate electricity in the former East German regions, Huh? Not shutting down the existing nuclear plants is a pure positive and does not prevent you from doing other things. Such as building out renewables and/or nuclear plants in the east. For the money we wasted on intermittent renewables so far, we could have built at least 50 reactors even at the inflated cost of the EPR prototype at Olkiluoto 3. Or 100 inflation-adjusted Konvois. So way more than enough. Nuclear power is well-suited for district heating and industrial heat applications, unlike solar and wind. > To claim that Germany shut down its reactors for no reason Nobody claimed that. Germany shut down its reactors for idiotic reasons: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiophobia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiophobia All West German reactors would have survived the 2011 Tōhoku earthquake and tsunami perfectly fine had they been at the site of Fukushima. And we don't have Tsunamis in Germany. How does shutting down those plants make sense again? When answering, consider that Japan is reactivating its nuclear plants. It's time for Germany to admit its mistake on nuclear energy https://www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2024/12/26/world/germany-nuclear-energy/ https://www.japantimes.co.jp/commentary/2024/12/26/world/ger... > or that only a minority of environmentalists decided to do so is misleading as, Again, such a good thing that that claim wasn't made in this thread. Or are you misleadingly claiming that it was? > misleading as, in Germany, all political parties close reactors, and most reactors were not closed by "Greens". Who "closed" reactors, now that actually is misleading for a change. The law that required nuclear reactors to be closed was passed by the Red/Green coalition in 2002. Germany happens to be a country with the rule of law, so successor governments can't just act on whim, they are bound by the law of the land. Oh, and it was the Greens who made the Atomausstieg the primary condition for their coalition with the SPD. So while it is correct that all parties are somewhat to blame, to claim that they are equally to blame is ahistorical nonsense and quite misleading. > Furthermore, this nuclear potential would result in higher costs and dependency That is also not true.