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In the past it was the postmodernists attacking physics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair It's funny how t

by seydor 1y ago

In the past it was the postmodernists attacking physics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sokal_affair It's funny how this new generation of professional antiestablishers are using the same tactics (even though they would vehemently attach postmodernism) It's all a power play really, when politics is involved. That's not science

Terr_ 1y ago
> this new generation of professional antiestablishers [...] would vehemently [attack] postmodernism I can think of two ways to interpret this, and I'm not sure which one you intend: 1. They hold modernist views, that there is a distinct and meaningful direction/progression for how societies must change over time. 2. They don't know what postmodernism means, and consider it a generic bad-word to attach to things they don't like. (Comic example: [0]) [0] https://existentialcomics.com/comic/289 https://existentialcomics.com/comic/289
mattmcknight 1y ago
"the postmodernists attacking physics" The Sokal affair was a physicist attacking the postmodernists for attacking physics (and scientific realism) by showing the postmodernists would publish complete nonsense. The current attack is saying the physics establishment is backing a theory that doesn't adequately make predictions (not adequately supporting scientific realism). It can be viewed outside the realm of power, that's a very postmodern view.
viccis 1y ago
The pomo authors weren't "attacking" physics. They used terminology sloppily in their writing and all Sokal proved was that if you find a publisher with sufficiently lax standards, they'll publish just about anything. I've read enough complete nonsense compsci papers from conferences with <15% acceptance rates, as well as seen the replication crisis get so bad that I've never taken Sokal's stunt as anything other than a party trick of philosophical philistinism. He showed that a journal that "covers subjects in the debates around feminism, Marxism, neoliberalism, postcolonialism, postmodernism, queer theory, and popular culture" doesn't perform adequate peer review of theoretical physics papers.
- seydor 1y ago
  The fact that sokal was wrong doesn't mean that science criticism has offered anything more useful throughout all these years
  - viccis 1y ago
    The problem is that his motivation was to critique "science criticism", but nothing about what he did did anything of the sort. He went about it with the same scientific rigor that one would expect from Derrida, Deleuze, Lacan, etc. Anyone can feel free to provide examples of this happening, but I don't think there has been significant impact on scientific rigor in top theoretical physics journals and conferences as a result of needling from postmodernists, either during Sokal's time or now. If anything, his identification of "the Left" as the biggest enemy of science was profoundly off base in retrospect.

by seydor 1y ago

Terr_ 1y ago

> this new generation of professional antiestablishers [...] would vehemently [attack] postmodernism I can think of two ways to interpret this, and I'm not sure which one you intend: 1. They hold modernist views, that there is a distinct and meaningful direction/progression for how societies must change over time. 2. They don't know what postmodernism means, and consider it a generic bad-word to attach to things they don't like. (Comic example: [0]) [0] https://existentialcomics.com/comic/289 https://existentialcomics.com/comic/289

mattmcknight 1y ago

"the postmodernists attacking physics" The Sokal affair was a physicist attacking the postmodernists for attacking physics (and scientific realism) by showing the postmodernists would publish complete nonsense. The current attack is saying the physics establishment is backing a theory that doesn't adequately make predictions (not adequately supporting scientific realism). It can be viewed outside the realm of power, that's a very postmodern view.

viccis 1y ago

The pomo authors weren't "attacking" physics. They used terminology sloppily in their writing and all Sokal proved was that if you find a publisher with sufficiently lax standards, they'll publish just about anything. I've read enough complete nonsense compsci papers from conferences with <15% acceptance rates, as well as seen the replication crisis get so bad that I've never taken Sokal's stunt as anything other than a party trick of philosophical philistinism. He showed that a journal that "covers subjects in the debates around feminism, Marxism, neoliberalism, postcolonialism, postmodernism, queer theory, and popular culture" doesn't perform adequate peer review of theoretical physics papers.

seydor 1y ago
The fact that sokal was wrong doesn't mean that science criticism has offered anything more useful throughout all these years
- viccis 1y ago
  The problem is that his motivation was to critique "science criticism", but nothing about what he did did anything of the sort. He went about it with the same scientific rigor that one would expect from Derrida, Deleuze, Lacan, etc. Anyone can feel free to provide examples of this happening, but I don't think there has been significant impact on scientific rigor in top theoretical physics journals and conferences as a result of needling from postmodernists, either during Sokal's time or now. If anything, his identification of "the Left" as the biggest enemy of science was profoundly off base in retrospect.