4 ms·

Does anybody have any optimistic hopes for the UK? I've noticed a downwards trend in almost all manners of living here over the past 10 years, and can't really

by sjw987 1y ago

Does anybody have any optimistic hopes for the UK? I've noticed a downwards trend in almost all manners of living here over the past 10 years, and can't really see what any government could do to change course.

SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
> and can't really see what any government could do to change course. Admit that Brexit was a terrible idea, and get close the the EU Again. Rejoining is not feasible for now, but alignment and free trade with our neighbours would have economic benefits. A UK government won't do it, of course.
- rdm_blackhole 1y ago
  I don't think Brexit alone is the reason for this trend. France and Germany are also doing rather poorly and they are still in the EU.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
    There's never a reason "alone", but this is a big contributor.
    - 4ndrewl 1y ago
      Which we were told about and ignored.
  - ZeroGravitas 1y ago
    Brexit probably has a measurable impact on them to.
    - sjiabq 1y ago
      [flagged]
      - barbazoo 1y ago
        Creating an account to call people “EU fanboys” seems like a juvenile thing to do.
        SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        Also, discussing "economic benefits of trade" and the gravity model of trade is not even remotely "fanboy" behaviour.
cedws 1y ago
No. I’m planning to leave. British born and raised. Probably best to exit before they introduce a massive exit tax like Germany’s, at the rate the UK is losing wealthy people it’s inevitable.
- sjw987 1y ago
  Is it alright to ask where you're planning on going?
  - cedws 1y ago
    Sure. I spent the last 6 months in Tokyo, needless to say it was great and I felt quite content there. I continued working for my London-based employer, which obviously means that I wasn’t fully integrating there and experienced all the pros without the cons. I couldn’t stay any longer than 6 months as the digital nomad visa isn’t extendable. I’d like to find somewhere to settle down for longer, and I have a few countries on the cards for visiting. If that works out I’ll start moving my assets over. If I can’t find somewhere then I’ll probably do a rotation between Japan and some other country, other factors permitting. Portugal seems like a good choice because of its digital nomad visa and after 5 years of living there I could apply for naturalisation and regain freedom of movement in the EU.
    - alephnerd 1y ago
      Japan is a great country, but has similar problems to the UK as well. Same with Portugal to a certain extent. The anti-immigrant far-right movement has become mainstream in Japan now as well with Kokumin, Ishin, Sanseito, Hoshuto, and far right factions of the LDP becoming mainstream. Could a lot of a malaise just be "grass is greener on the other side" syndrome, or that you aren't as looped into Japanese political discourse the same way you might be in Anglophone countries? I've seen a similar trend of trying to find greener grass amongst Japanese as well, though they tend to target South Korea, China, or ASEAN countries like Thailand and Vietnam.
      - cedws 1y ago
fidotron 1y ago
I left the UK about 20 years ago, and whenever visiting the deterioration of basically everything is very noticeable. It's very hard to shake the impression that what is left in the tech industry there is loosely what you may call defense related. It's as if it's returned to the 1970s.
- SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
  > It's very hard to shake the impression that what is left in the tech industry there is loosely what you may call defense related In London city it's mostly finance related.
- sjw987 1y ago
  Is it alright if I ask where you went? And how you were able to make that move?
  - fidotron 1y ago
    In Quebec in Canada. Because I was in games I was able to move with work, and eventually got PR and then citizenship. Quebec has its own problems too, but the sense of pointlessness in the UK is something else.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
FirmwareBurner 1y ago
>I've noticed a downwards trend in almost all manners of living here over the past 10 years, and can't really see what any government could do to change course. Everyone I talk to from several EU countries feels the same: today we're an a much lower point than 10 years ago. Hell, where I am now in Austria, the country is the only one in EU with a GDP decline compared to last year, and a stagnation like UK would actually be an improvement lol. Salaries in general have barely grown since 10 years with inflation adjustments, but housing is up several times compared to 10 years ago. Those I know who bought houses around 2014 keep thanking their lucky star since they admit they wouldn't be able to purchase the same home at the value of today on their wages of today. I think the situation in Canada is exactly the same or maybe even worse. So nobody in the west that I know of, thinks the situation is better now than 10 years ago. UK is no different than the rest of the west but they have this feeling that they are.
- alephnerd 1y ago
  > Salaries in general have barely grown since 10 years with inflation adjustments I've previously opened offices within the EU, and this is one of the downsides (for you guys) of the single market - why should I pay "market rate" German salaries when I can hire someone in Cluj, Lodz, Brno, or Sofia in the €20k-40k range, and be given a €5k-20k per head tax holiday along with fairly low corporate taxes from these countries. > I think the situation in Canada is exactly the same or maybe even worse. Canada is also a resource economy, and they got hit by the commodity glut really badly over the past few years.
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    > why should I pay "market rate" German salaries when I can hire someone in Cluj, Lodz, Brno, or Sofia in the €20k-40k range, and be given a €5k-20k per head tax holiday along with fairly low corporate taxes from these countries. It's not all about labor cost. For example some big companies opened large offices in Germany not because labor there is cheaper or smarter, but because they're the biggest regulator in Europe so hiring a lot of people there is a good way to gain political favoritism at EU level. But yeah, if you want bang for the buck workers that take Jira tickets as input and churn out git commits, you can't beat eastern Europe.
barnabee 1y ago
I am not convinced the stagnation or downward trend is either inevitable or irreversible. The impact of the last 1–2 decades of policies and global/regional events may continue feeding through and making things worse (or at least stopping them getting much better) for some time. However, the fact that the change of government hasn’t magically fixed everything does not mean that it won’t eventually start to have a positive impact or that the direction of travel is one way. Equally, the new government is far from perfect and has made quite a few unforced errors alongside the positive changes, so success is far from guaranteed. Of course, if people in general don’t start to believe it by the next election and we end up with a Reform government (or even more Tories given their current state), all bets are off.
traceroute66 1y ago
> Does anybody have any optimistic hopes for the UK? Not post-Brexit, no. With Brexit, the UK voted to cut itself off from its: - nearest trading partner - source of seasonal and low-paid workers But it also chose to do so in the hardest possible manner thanks to Boris's "deal". As a result: - many businesses can't be bothered with the new paperwork that comes from being outside the zone - many businesses struggle because the free-movement labour is no longer available, e.g. farmers need seasonal pickers, restaurants need seasonal front-of-house staff etc. There was a hope that Labour would change this given all the noises they made during opposition. But sadly they seem to be doubling down and continuing to brown-nose Trump. Farage also has a seat in parliament, both the major parties are terrified of him, and so they continue trying to out-Farage Farage at varying levels. Which is a terrifyingly dangerous game to play. Then there's all the usual stories of decades of lack of investment in public services etc.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  > - source of seasonal and low-paid workers They replaced that with ease by issuing work visas to whoever wanted.
  - traceroute66 1y ago
    > They replaced that with ease by issuing work visas to whoever wanted. Generously setting aside the broader general question of factual accuracy of your statement... Work Visa is not the same thing as freedom of movement Let us revisit the example of seasonal farm labour: Picking is a skilled task. You are paid by the piece, ergo to make good money you have to pick many pieces, and you have to pick every single one in a suitably skilled manner to avoid undue damage. During the season, skilled pickers, mostly of Eastern European origin, would travel on coaches through Europe from farm-to-farm to pick and earn good money before returning home at the end of the season. No prior visa application required, just turn up and leave when done. Pre-Brexit, this "picking tour" would include the UK of course. And it would be double win-win for the pickers because GBP was traditionally strong against their home currencies. So earning in GBP gave them a standard of living boost back home. Now post-Brexit, no UK citizen wants to be a seasonal picker. And nobody from abroad is going to go through the time (and expense !!) of getting a visa for seasonal picking.
tim333 1y ago
I have mild optimism in the longer term. Things were quite bad in the 1970s but the place recovered. They are kinda bad now but I think it'll recover again.

by sjw987 1y ago

SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago

> and can't really see what any government could do to change course. Admit that Brexit was a terrible idea, and get close the the EU Again. Rejoining is not feasible for now, but alignment and free trade with our neighbours would have economic benefits. A UK government won't do it, of course.

rdm_blackhole 1y ago
I don't think Brexit alone is the reason for this trend. France and Germany are also doing rather poorly and they are still in the EU.
- SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
  There's never a reason "alone", but this is a big contributor.
  - 4ndrewl 1y ago
    Which we were told about and ignored.
- ZeroGravitas 1y ago
  Brexit probably has a measurable impact on them to.
  - sjiabq 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - barbazoo 1y ago
      Creating an account to call people “EU fanboys” seems like a juvenile thing to do.
      - SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
        Also, discussing "economic benefits of trade" and the gravity model of trade is not even remotely "fanboy" behaviour.

cedws 1y ago

No. I’m planning to leave. British born and raised. Probably best to exit before they introduce a massive exit tax like Germany’s, at the rate the UK is losing wealthy people it’s inevitable.

sjw987 1y ago
Is it alright to ask where you're planning on going?
- cedws 1y ago
  Sure. I spent the last 6 months in Tokyo, needless to say it was great and I felt quite content there. I continued working for my London-based employer, which obviously means that I wasn’t fully integrating there and experienced all the pros without the cons. I couldn’t stay any longer than 6 months as the digital nomad visa isn’t extendable. I’d like to find somewhere to settle down for longer, and I have a few countries on the cards for visiting. If that works out I’ll start moving my assets over. If I can’t find somewhere then I’ll probably do a rotation between Japan and some other country, other factors permitting. Portugal seems like a good choice because of its digital nomad visa and after 5 years of living there I could apply for naturalisation and regain freedom of movement in the EU.
  - alephnerd 1y ago
    Japan is a great country, but has similar problems to the UK as well. Same with Portugal to a certain extent. The anti-immigrant far-right movement has become mainstream in Japan now as well with Kokumin, Ishin, Sanseito, Hoshuto, and far right factions of the LDP becoming mainstream. Could a lot of a malaise just be "grass is greener on the other side" syndrome, or that you aren't as looped into Japanese political discourse the same way you might be in Anglophone countries? I've seen a similar trend of trying to find greener grass amongst Japanese as well, though they tend to target South Korea, China, or ASEAN countries like Thailand and Vietnam.
    - cedws 1y ago

fidotron 1y ago

I left the UK about 20 years ago, and whenever visiting the deterioration of basically everything is very noticeable. It's very hard to shake the impression that what is left in the tech industry there is loosely what you may call defense related. It's as if it's returned to the 1970s.

SideburnsOfDoom 1y ago
> It's very hard to shake the impression that what is left in the tech industry there is loosely what you may call defense related In London city it's mostly finance related.
sjw987 1y ago
Is it alright if I ask where you went? And how you were able to make that move?
- fidotron 1y ago
  In Quebec in Canada. Because I was in games I was able to move with work, and eventually got PR and then citizenship. Quebec has its own problems too, but the sense of pointlessness in the UK is something else.

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

FirmwareBurner 1y ago

>I've noticed a downwards trend in almost all manners of living here over the past 10 years, and can't really see what any government could do to change course. Everyone I talk to from several EU countries feels the same: today we're an a much lower point than 10 years ago. Hell, where I am now in Austria, the country is the only one in EU with a GDP decline compared to last year, and a stagnation like UK would actually be an improvement lol. Salaries in general have barely grown since 10 years with inflation adjustments, but housing is up several times compared to 10 years ago. Those I know who bought houses around 2014 keep thanking their lucky star since they admit they wouldn't be able to purchase the same home at the value of today on their wages of today. I think the situation in Canada is exactly the same or maybe even worse. So nobody in the west that I know of, thinks the situation is better now than 10 years ago. UK is no different than the rest of the west but they have this feeling that they are.

alephnerd 1y ago
> Salaries in general have barely grown since 10 years with inflation adjustments I've previously opened offices within the EU, and this is one of the downsides (for you guys) of the single market - why should I pay "market rate" German salaries when I can hire someone in Cluj, Lodz, Brno, or Sofia in the €20k-40k range, and be given a €5k-20k per head tax holiday along with fairly low corporate taxes from these countries. > I think the situation in Canada is exactly the same or maybe even worse. Canada is also a resource economy, and they got hit by the commodity glut really badly over the past few years.
- FirmwareBurner 1y ago
  > why should I pay "market rate" German salaries when I can hire someone in Cluj, Lodz, Brno, or Sofia in the €20k-40k range, and be given a €5k-20k per head tax holiday along with fairly low corporate taxes from these countries. It's not all about labor cost. For example some big companies opened large offices in Germany not because labor there is cheaper or smarter, but because they're the biggest regulator in Europe so hiring a lot of people there is a good way to gain political favoritism at EU level. But yeah, if you want bang for the buck workers that take Jira tickets as input and churn out git commits, you can't beat eastern Europe.

barnabee 1y ago

I am not convinced the stagnation or downward trend is either inevitable or irreversible. The impact of the last 1–2 decades of policies and global/regional events may continue feeding through and making things worse (or at least stopping them getting much better) for some time. However, the fact that the change of government hasn’t magically fixed everything does not mean that it won’t eventually start to have a positive impact or that the direction of travel is one way. Equally, the new government is far from perfect and has made quite a few unforced errors alongside the positive changes, so success is far from guaranteed. Of course, if people in general don’t start to believe it by the next election and we end up with a Reform government (or even more Tories given their current state), all bets are off.

traceroute66 1y ago

> Does anybody have any optimistic hopes for the UK? Not post-Brexit, no. With Brexit, the UK voted to cut itself off from its: - nearest trading partner - source of seasonal and low-paid workers But it also chose to do so in the hardest possible manner thanks to Boris's "deal". As a result: - many businesses can't be bothered with the new paperwork that comes from being outside the zone - many businesses struggle because the free-movement labour is no longer available, e.g. farmers need seasonal pickers, restaurants need seasonal front-of-house staff etc. There was a hope that Labour would change this given all the noises they made during opposition. But sadly they seem to be doubling down and continuing to brown-nose Trump. Farage also has a seat in parliament, both the major parties are terrified of him, and so they continue trying to out-Farage Farage at varying levels. Which is a terrifyingly dangerous game to play. Then there's all the usual stories of decades of lack of investment in public services etc.

FirmwareBurner 1y ago
> - source of seasonal and low-paid workers They replaced that with ease by issuing work visas to whoever wanted.
- traceroute66 1y ago
  > They replaced that with ease by issuing work visas to whoever wanted. Generously setting aside the broader general question of factual accuracy of your statement... Work Visa is not the same thing as freedom of movement Let us revisit the example of seasonal farm labour: Picking is a skilled task. You are paid by the piece, ergo to make good money you have to pick many pieces, and you have to pick every single one in a suitably skilled manner to avoid undue damage. During the season, skilled pickers, mostly of Eastern European origin, would travel on coaches through Europe from farm-to-farm to pick and earn good money before returning home at the end of the season. No prior visa application required, just turn up and leave when done. Pre-Brexit, this "picking tour" would include the UK of course. And it would be double win-win for the pickers because GBP was traditionally strong against their home currencies. So earning in GBP gave them a standard of living boost back home. Now post-Brexit, no UK citizen wants to be a seasonal picker. And nobody from abroad is going to go through the time (and expense !!) of getting a visa for seasonal picking.

tim333 1y ago

I have mild optimism in the longer term. Things were quite bad in the 1970s but the place recovered. They are kinda bad now but I think it'll recover again.