5 ms·

I find some of the claims made about North Korea rather fanciful and unbelievable.

by Synaesthesia 1y ago

bilekas 1y ago
You find them to be, do you have any insight that would help us understand your point ?
- sjiabq 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - bilekas 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - derelicta 1y ago
      I know it's controversial to say here, but Korean people are human too. They are not stupid insects groomed to follow some great leader as if it were the queen of the hive. Most of what you assume to know about Koreans and likely Chinese or Vietnamese people is false. It's pure propaganda. Also lol for linking the BBC. To me it's like linking Radio Free Asia or the New York Times and pretend those are freedom fighters.
      - bilekas 1y ago
        > Also lol for linking the BBC. To me it's like linking Radio Free Asia or the New York Times and pretend those are freedom fighters. It's not really when the reporting is reporting what was done. But here's some more articles saying the same thing ? > Most of what you assume to know about Koreans and likely Chinese or Vietnamese people is false. You are assuming I am making assumptions. But I can see this discussion isn't going anywhere fast. https://www.reuters.com/article/world/asia-pacific/north-korean-leader-offers-rare-apology-for-killing-of-south-korean-idUSKCN26G0L8/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/asia-pacific/north-kor... https://abcnews.go.com/International/north-korea-issues-rare-apology-killing-south-korean/story?id=73235436 https://abcnews.go.com/International/north-korea-issues-rare... https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/foreignaffairs/northkorea/20200926/north-korean-apology-for-killing-incident-a-helpful-step-us https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/foreignaffairs/northkorea/20200... https://www.npr.org/2020/09/25/916807251/kim-jong-un-apologizes-for-shooting-death-of-south-korean-official https://www.npr.org/2020/09/25/916807251/kim-jong-un-apologi...
        derelicta 1y ago
        Oh yes ofc, if all imperial newspapers are saying it has happened, then it must have happened. A bit like when all imperial newspapers said there were WMD in Irak and that's why America had to destroy this country.
        bilekas 1y ago
        I really don't like entertaining discussions that are in bad faith, but the Iraq WMDs comment has bothered me. The UN themselves said it was unlikely Iraq had them. So while you clearly have your biases, at least double check them before trying to make a point. More people might take you seriously and have a meaningful discussion. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/16/iraq.iraq https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/16/iraq.iraq
        erxam 1y ago
        It's funny seeing how the same people who scream and whine about the media being 'biased' whenever they report on some awful shit that Trump did (even when it actually indirectly paints him positively) will unquestionably believe absolutely everything the media reports about North Korea. Oh, sure, they're not directly state-owned news (except NPR and the BBC etc. etc.). They're just owned by the owners of the state.
      - zamadatix 1y ago
        I don't see a controversy on HN where the problem with North Korea is supposed to be the people must not be human. You, me, North Koreans, South Koreans, and anybody else are obviously all people. These are regions of people, not species listings. As such, we obviously all fall for silly beliefs - that's one thing humans do. Sometimes that bites us in the ass real bad, sometimes it's less severe, but humans aren't defined as being perfect. Believing being human makes you immune to the same kinds of belief problems as other humans have gotten themselves into results in bite-you-in-the-ass results more often, among other problems.
      - simion314 1y ago
        This sounds very soviet, I see them all the time showing some traveling guide to NK and claiming is a paradise like USSR was, but then you ask why do this regimes have walls and kill the people that try to escape the paradise? why do people want to escape the paradise risking their lives ? And to have the balls to claim you can't trust people that lived in NK and escaped and you should better trust who? those NK propaganda images the soviets are spreading around ? I call soviets the home sovieticus, the imperialists bastards that excuse that criminal regime and want it back, like the Zeds and their friends.
        justsomehnguy 1y ago
        > but then you ask why do this regimes have walls and kill the people that try to escape the paradise? Now do the same for the country you are very fond of. It wouldn't be so hard, right?
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        simion314 1y ago
        >Now do the same for the country you are very fond of. It wouldn't be so hard, right? Super easy, I can exit Romania to EU just with my identity card, I can go to Moldova just as easy , for other countries depends on their rules like I might need to have family there if I am visiting them or to have paid for hotels and have some money to prove I am a tourist. So I can exit Romania unless I am under some investigation by the police and a judge asked me not to run away. this was not true during communist times, the communist had walls and they killed people attempting to leave the paradise, even if you had a passport because you were some important person your passport was kept by the police not by you. Hard question for you now, If NK won't let the population go and visit some evil, corrupt, dangerous country why are teh citizens also blocked to freely travel to China or RuZZia ? Also why is that country starving when they are neighboring those big countries that soviets claim they are very kind.
        justsomehnguy 1y ago
  - throawaywpg 1y ago
    how many NK defectors support the narrative of the NK government? How many corroborate the western reports?
  - StefanBatory 1y ago
    I grew up in Eastern Europe. Yes, in the height of terror - that is what communists would do. Having a wrong book would mark you as an enemy of state. Or look, even Cambodia - even if how much they were communist first, or nationalist first is debatable - mere glasses would mark you for death.
- derelicta 1y ago
  There is just a lot of bs being spread about NK. Westerners, for example, genuindely believed all koreans had to get a haircut that is approved by the government. I'm not even saying this country is not paranoid, but its nearly not as bad as everyone is imaging, and frankly, considering what Americans have inflicted unto the korean people, its fairly understandable.
  - 31337Logic 1y ago
    Oh I'll take the firsthand reports of escapees over your thoughts on the matter, any day.
    - jackb4040 1y ago
      North Korean defectors are well known for being unreliable sources. They rarely have skills nor social connections and thus are massively incentivized to join the existing markets for anti-NK propaganda in both the West and India. The kind of obvious propaganda like "it's a crime to have the same haircut as Kim Jong-Un" (or to not have it, depending on the source). No one is saying life there is great, but there is a track record of fantastically untrue stories.
      - incone123 1y ago
        If they rarely have skills or social connections, how were they able to achieve the feat of escaping from the Hermit Kingdom in the first place? It seems to me that this high bar selects for people who can thrive in adverse circumstances.
        gddgb 1y ago
        [dead]
      - deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
    - kelipso 1y ago
crazybonkersai 1y ago
The most plausible explanation that those people who escaped NK were sentenced for something else and use excuse of watching foreign films to look good to Western researchers. I believe that media landscape is restricted in NK, but getting a death sentence for a watching movie? No way it is possible.
- incone123 1y ago
  Why do you think that is the 'most plausible explanation'? NK meets the simple test for evil dictatorships: do they need to use fences to stop citizens from leaving? Yes, NK does exactly that.
  - seivan 1y ago
    [dead]
- lIl-IIIl 1y ago
  Look at the Soviet Union at the height of Stalinist oppression in the 1930s. Having the wrong book (not even necessarily a Western book but even a Soviet book that is no longer in good graces) could be a trip to the Gulag which for many was a death sentence. A lot of it was driven by quotas that the police had to meet.
- usagisushi 1y ago
  I wonder why NK doesn't pay "fake" defectors to create counter-propaganda. Well, that's a silly joke. Yet, the fact is that regime has implemented new laws to strictly regulate citizens' access to SK/Western TV shows. Nor does it make any effort to present its own narrative to the world by allowing people to freely share some TikTok clips showing them enjoying domestic content about their supreme commander over shitty foreign Netflix videos. Why? Because no way it is possible.
belter 1y ago
Me too. I don't think they need a reason to execute a person...
- duxup 1y ago
  It certainly serves a purpose to have a reason, to make people fearful.
  - saulpw 1y ago
    People are more fearful when there is no reason, when it is arbitrary or capricious.
    - duxup 1y ago
      Fearful of watching videos.
jihadjihad 1y ago
I am sure the parents of Otto Warmbier [0] could disinfect your disbelief in the harsh light of their reality. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier
- erxam 1y ago
  Ok, so let me get this straight. Some foreigner came into their country and tried to 'illuminate' the 'unwashed' masses via tearing down propaganda and was promptly thrown into some hellhole of a jail. Seems to me like a normal thing to have happened. By the standards of the Global North, that is. Doesn't seem meaningfully different from today's USA.
  - Incipient 1y ago
    The way I read it is he was taking a poster home as a souvenir. An incredibly stupid thing to do, but I feel like being tortured to death for the amusement of people (presumably?) is somewhat excessive.
    - erxam 1y ago
      I guess so, given that we'll never know what he actually did. The punishment was sort of excessive, I agree. I'm mostly trying to make light on the fact that trying to validate outlandish propaganda by using an event which actually happened as some kind of 'gotcha' falls flat when the event you're talking about is something that happens routinely in the USA and, more generally, in the Global North. If I went to the USA and took down a MAGA poster, my ass would be in Alligator Alcatraz 2.0 within the day and nobody would ever find me again. At least until I land in South Sudan or some shit.
    - foogazi 1y ago
      > The way I read it is he was taking a poster home as a souvenir. An incredibly stupid thing to do Sounds like the most innocuous thing in the world
  - throawaywpg 1y ago

I find some of the claims made about North Korea rather fanciful and unbelievable.

bilekas 1y ago

You find them to be, do you have any insight that would help us understand your point ?

sjiabq 1y ago
[flagged]
- bilekas 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - derelicta 1y ago
    I know it's controversial to say here, but Korean people are human too. They are not stupid insects groomed to follow some great leader as if it were the queen of the hive. Most of what you assume to know about Koreans and likely Chinese or Vietnamese people is false. It's pure propaganda. Also lol for linking the BBC. To me it's like linking Radio Free Asia or the New York Times and pretend those are freedom fighters.
    - bilekas 1y ago
      > Also lol for linking the BBC. To me it's like linking Radio Free Asia or the New York Times and pretend those are freedom fighters. It's not really when the reporting is reporting what was done. But here's some more articles saying the same thing ? > Most of what you assume to know about Koreans and likely Chinese or Vietnamese people is false. You are assuming I am making assumptions. But I can see this discussion isn't going anywhere fast. https://www.reuters.com/article/world/asia-pacific/north-korean-leader-offers-rare-apology-for-killing-of-south-korean-idUSKCN26G0L8/ https://www.reuters.com/article/world/asia-pacific/north-kor... https://abcnews.go.com/International/north-korea-issues-rare-apology-killing-south-korean/story?id=73235436 https://abcnews.go.com/International/north-korea-issues-rare... https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/foreignaffairs/northkorea/20200926/north-korean-apology-for-killing-incident-a-helpful-step-us https://www.koreatimes.co.kr/foreignaffairs/northkorea/20200... https://www.npr.org/2020/09/25/916807251/kim-jong-un-apologizes-for-shooting-death-of-south-korean-official https://www.npr.org/2020/09/25/916807251/kim-jong-un-apologi...
      - derelicta 1y ago
        Oh yes ofc, if all imperial newspapers are saying it has happened, then it must have happened. A bit like when all imperial newspapers said there were WMD in Irak and that's why America had to destroy this country.
        bilekas 1y ago
        I really don't like entertaining discussions that are in bad faith, but the Iraq WMDs comment has bothered me. The UN themselves said it was unlikely Iraq had them. So while you clearly have your biases, at least double check them before trying to make a point. More people might take you seriously and have a meaningful discussion. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/16/iraq.iraq https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/sep/16/iraq.iraq
        erxam 1y ago
        It's funny seeing how the same people who scream and whine about the media being 'biased' whenever they report on some awful shit that Trump did (even when it actually indirectly paints him positively) will unquestionably believe absolutely everything the media reports about North Korea. Oh, sure, they're not directly state-owned news (except NPR and the BBC etc. etc.). They're just owned by the owners of the state.
    - zamadatix 1y ago
      I don't see a controversy on HN where the problem with North Korea is supposed to be the people must not be human. You, me, North Koreans, South Koreans, and anybody else are obviously all people. These are regions of people, not species listings. As such, we obviously all fall for silly beliefs - that's one thing humans do. Sometimes that bites us in the ass real bad, sometimes it's less severe, but humans aren't defined as being perfect. Believing being human makes you immune to the same kinds of belief problems as other humans have gotten themselves into results in bite-you-in-the-ass results more often, among other problems.
    - simion314 1y ago
      This sounds very soviet, I see them all the time showing some traveling guide to NK and claiming is a paradise like USSR was, but then you ask why do this regimes have walls and kill the people that try to escape the paradise? why do people want to escape the paradise risking their lives ? And to have the balls to claim you can't trust people that lived in NK and escaped and you should better trust who? those NK propaganda images the soviets are spreading around ? I call soviets the home sovieticus, the imperialists bastards that excuse that criminal regime and want it back, like the Zeds and their friends.
      - justsomehnguy 1y ago
        > but then you ask why do this regimes have walls and kill the people that try to escape the paradise? Now do the same for the country you are very fond of. It wouldn't be so hard, right?
        deleted 1y ago
        [deleted]
        simion314 1y ago
        >Now do the same for the country you are very fond of. It wouldn't be so hard, right? Super easy, I can exit Romania to EU just with my identity card, I can go to Moldova just as easy , for other countries depends on their rules like I might need to have family there if I am visiting them or to have paid for hotels and have some money to prove I am a tourist. So I can exit Romania unless I am under some investigation by the police and a judge asked me not to run away. this was not true during communist times, the communist had walls and they killed people attempting to leave the paradise, even if you had a passport because you were some important person your passport was kept by the police not by you. Hard question for you now, If NK won't let the population go and visit some evil, corrupt, dangerous country why are teh citizens also blocked to freely travel to China or RuZZia ? Also why is that country starving when they are neighboring those big countries that soviets claim they are very kind.
        justsomehnguy 1y ago
- throawaywpg 1y ago
  how many NK defectors support the narrative of the NK government? How many corroborate the western reports?
- StefanBatory 1y ago
  I grew up in Eastern Europe. Yes, in the height of terror - that is what communists would do. Having a wrong book would mark you as an enemy of state. Or look, even Cambodia - even if how much they were communist first, or nationalist first is debatable - mere glasses would mark you for death.
derelicta 1y ago
There is just a lot of bs being spread about NK. Westerners, for example, genuindely believed all koreans had to get a haircut that is approved by the government. I'm not even saying this country is not paranoid, but its nearly not as bad as everyone is imaging, and frankly, considering what Americans have inflicted unto the korean people, its fairly understandable.
- 31337Logic 1y ago
  Oh I'll take the firsthand reports of escapees over your thoughts on the matter, any day.
  - jackb4040 1y ago
    North Korean defectors are well known for being unreliable sources. They rarely have skills nor social connections and thus are massively incentivized to join the existing markets for anti-NK propaganda in both the West and India. The kind of obvious propaganda like "it's a crime to have the same haircut as Kim Jong-Un" (or to not have it, depending on the source). No one is saying life there is great, but there is a track record of fantastically untrue stories.
    - incone123 1y ago
      If they rarely have skills or social connections, how were they able to achieve the feat of escaping from the Hermit Kingdom in the first place? It seems to me that this high bar selects for people who can thrive in adverse circumstances.
      - gddgb 1y ago
        [dead]
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
  - kelipso 1y ago

crazybonkersai 1y ago

The most plausible explanation that those people who escaped NK were sentenced for something else and use excuse of watching foreign films to look good to Western researchers. I believe that media landscape is restricted in NK, but getting a death sentence for a watching movie? No way it is possible.

incone123 1y ago
Why do you think that is the 'most plausible explanation'? NK meets the simple test for evil dictatorships: do they need to use fences to stop citizens from leaving? Yes, NK does exactly that.
- seivan 1y ago
  [dead]
lIl-IIIl 1y ago
Look at the Soviet Union at the height of Stalinist oppression in the 1930s. Having the wrong book (not even necessarily a Western book but even a Soviet book that is no longer in good graces) could be a trip to the Gulag which for many was a death sentence. A lot of it was driven by quotas that the police had to meet.
usagisushi 1y ago
I wonder why NK doesn't pay "fake" defectors to create counter-propaganda. Well, that's a silly joke. Yet, the fact is that regime has implemented new laws to strictly regulate citizens' access to SK/Western TV shows. Nor does it make any effort to present its own narrative to the world by allowing people to freely share some TikTok clips showing them enjoying domestic content about their supreme commander over shitty foreign Netflix videos. Why? Because no way it is possible.

belter 1y ago

Me too. I don't think they need a reason to execute a person...

duxup 1y ago
It certainly serves a purpose to have a reason, to make people fearful.
- saulpw 1y ago
  People are more fearful when there is no reason, when it is arbitrary or capricious.
  - duxup 1y ago
    Fearful of watching videos.

jihadjihad 1y ago

I am sure the parents of Otto Warmbier [0] could disinfect your disbelief in the harsh light of their reality. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Warmbier

erxam 1y ago
Ok, so let me get this straight. Some foreigner came into their country and tried to 'illuminate' the 'unwashed' masses via tearing down propaganda and was promptly thrown into some hellhole of a jail. Seems to me like a normal thing to have happened. By the standards of the Global North, that is. Doesn't seem meaningfully different from today's USA.
- Incipient 1y ago
  The way I read it is he was taking a poster home as a souvenir. An incredibly stupid thing to do, but I feel like being tortured to death for the amusement of people (presumably?) is somewhat excessive.
  - erxam 1y ago
    I guess so, given that we'll never know what he actually did. The punishment was sort of excessive, I agree. I'm mostly trying to make light on the fact that trying to validate outlandish propaganda by using an event which actually happened as some kind of 'gotcha' falls flat when the event you're talking about is something that happens routinely in the USA and, more generally, in the Global North. If I went to the USA and took down a MAGA poster, my ass would be in Alligator Alcatraz 2.0 within the day and nobody would ever find me again. At least until I land in South Sudan or some shit.
  - foogazi 1y ago
    > The way I read it is he was taking a poster home as a souvenir. An incredibly stupid thing to do Sounds like the most innocuous thing in the world
- throawaywpg 1y ago