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Violence should never be allowed to become a useful weapon against free speech. When a company has built tools for self-expression that are widely used, they h

by ActVen 14y ago

Violence should never be allowed to become a useful weapon against free speech. When a company has built tools for self-expression that are widely used, they have a responsibility to commit to broad principles under difficult circumstances. Free speech principles aren't as widely protected across the globe as they are in the US, but that doesn't mean they are not very important to the advancement of society.

Cushman 14y ago
You're clouding the issue. "Free speech principles" as you describe them are not weakly protected elsewhere, they are not held. In particular, many -- most? -- enlightened Western democracies hold that hateful speech is not deserving of protection. Not because they're wishy-washy, but because they believe that's right. You're being closed-minded if you're not willing to accept the possibility that they're right.
- calibraxis 14y ago
  Yes, as someone from the US, I feel embarrassed when our free-speech rights are lorded over others. After the 1960's Civil Rights struggles, we probably do in fact have the best free speech protection. But it's kind of academic since we (for example) also imprison ourselves the most. (Both in rate and total. A severe stripping not only of speech but freedom and dignity too. And of course it's "political", whatever that means. It keeps many from voting post-slavery.) There's different forms of social control; it's multi-dimensional. In a top-down democracy with elected kings, it requires consistent struggle to improve things. We're very privileged, and unfortunately arrogant and militantly violent too. I mean, what are we doing in the middle east anyway, handing out flowers? Or killing people, breaking things and making sure we're their boss?
- ActVen 14y ago
  Your argument that I am being "closed-minded" because I believe in the value of free speech is amusing. Valuing broad free speech rights is a characteristic of an open mind. I never said that I didn't "accept the possibility that they're right". I just don't believe that an organization should be in charge of deciding what is "hateful" and what isn't. I happen to believe that free expression is critical to our moral and scientific growth as a species.
  - Cushman 14y ago
    So, again, on this issue you disagree with many very thoughtful, compassionate people, including most famously democratic governments who have lived through actual totalitarian dictatorship. (Many of the less thoughtful and compassionate of these would look at American standards of public assistance, education, and criminal justice, hear you talk about "our moral and scientific growth as a species", and laugh in your face.) Consider that they may be right and you may be wrong.
    - ActVen 14y ago
      I'm not sure how you made my comment about growth as a species equate to "American Standards". Also, its very "closed-minded" of you to believe that the actions of a country exactly mirrors the values of each of its citizens. Oh well, I wish you the best. (The disagreement and dialogue in this conversation has been brought to you by Free Expression.)
      - Cushman 14y ago
        > The disagreement and dialogue in this conversation has been brought to you by Free Expression. Much to the contrary-- try having a conversation like this on a "free" forum like 4chan and see how far you get. This kind of respectful dialogue is brought to us by pervasive peer moderation and social opprobrium, with a dash of outright censorship to taste.

by ActVen 14y ago

Cushman 14y ago

You're clouding the issue. "Free speech principles" as you describe them are not weakly protected elsewhere, they are not held. In particular, many -- most? -- enlightened Western democracies hold that hateful speech is not deserving of protection. Not because they're wishy-washy, but because they believe that's right. You're being closed-minded if you're not willing to accept the possibility that they're right.

calibraxis 14y ago
Yes, as someone from the US, I feel embarrassed when our free-speech rights are lorded over others. After the 1960's Civil Rights struggles, we probably do in fact have the best free speech protection. But it's kind of academic since we (for example) also imprison ourselves the most. (Both in rate and total. A severe stripping not only of speech but freedom and dignity too. And of course it's "political", whatever that means. It keeps many from voting post-slavery.) There's different forms of social control; it's multi-dimensional. In a top-down democracy with elected kings, it requires consistent struggle to improve things. We're very privileged, and unfortunately arrogant and militantly violent too. I mean, what are we doing in the middle east anyway, handing out flowers? Or killing people, breaking things and making sure we're their boss?
ActVen 14y ago
Your argument that I am being "closed-minded" because I believe in the value of free speech is amusing. Valuing broad free speech rights is a characteristic of an open mind. I never said that I didn't "accept the possibility that they're right". I just don't believe that an organization should be in charge of deciding what is "hateful" and what isn't. I happen to believe that free expression is critical to our moral and scientific growth as a species.
- Cushman 14y ago
  So, again, on this issue you disagree with many very thoughtful, compassionate people, including most famously democratic governments who have lived through actual totalitarian dictatorship. (Many of the less thoughtful and compassionate of these would look at American standards of public assistance, education, and criminal justice, hear you talk about "our moral and scientific growth as a species", and laugh in your face.) Consider that they may be right and you may be wrong.
  - ActVen 14y ago
    I'm not sure how you made my comment about growth as a species equate to "American Standards". Also, its very "closed-minded" of you to believe that the actions of a country exactly mirrors the values of each of its citizens. Oh well, I wish you the best. (The disagreement and dialogue in this conversation has been brought to you by Free Expression.)
    - Cushman 14y ago
      > The disagreement and dialogue in this conversation has been brought to you by Free Expression. Much to the contrary-- try having a conversation like this on a "free" forum like 4chan and see how far you get. This kind of respectful dialogue is brought to us by pervasive peer moderation and social opprobrium, with a dash of outright censorship to taste.