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Look in the mirror. Apple makes money by selling devices. With giant profit margins, at that. So why should they be able to charge developers in addition to c

Look in the mirror. Apple makes money by selling devices. With giant profit margins, at that. So why should they be able to charge developers in addition to consumers?

coldtea 1y ago
Because selling devices is orthogonal to maintaining a marketplace and dozens of APIs for third parties to use, and the latter can be charged for as well.
- ksec 1y ago
  If EU doesn't demand for those API to be free, may be Apple could just have terms and cost for those API to be charged? Basically like Lightning adoptor where Apple collects dollars on accessories sold. I agree on both side some money needs to be exchanged in terms of features and Apple cant have it all to themselves. But currently it doesn't seems both side is listening and no middle ground. One side wants it all for free, the other side dont want their money and wants to keep everything themselves.
  - shuckles 1y ago
    Apple proposed something like this with their "Core Technology Fee" which the EU commissioners were upset about. They literally do not want to let Apple directly monetize the R&D it takes to produce an application platform.
    - ksec 1y ago
      I think there is a different in Core Technology Fee and let say Apple Translation Software Fees. One is too broad while another one is specific. Apple could theoretically give away that translation software as bundle of AirPod. And see that software for a cost to other user or third party.
    - cyberax 1y ago
      Yeah, because this fee was crazy unreasonable (50 cents per app download).
      - shuckles 1y ago
        Who are you to say what a reasonable price is for Apple’s intellectual property?
        cyberax 1y ago
        For developers? $0.0 for app publishing. Bandwidth cost for download. We can use AWS egress fees as guidance. Let's see... How much should Apple pay to the European Union to be allowed to sell devices there? I say 50% of gross income?
        shuckles 1y ago
        If we’re posting uneconomic nonsense like it’s Reddit, might as well go big and propose a 99% tax on gross income.
        cyberax 1y ago
        Sure. Totally agree. Maybe even transfer the control of Apple to the EU Commission. They violated the law, so they deserve to be properly disciplined for that.
        dns_snek 1y ago
        The EU, that's who. The law exists because these policies stifle competition and prevent the proper functioning of the free market and the DMA is a small step to restore the competitive balance. It's bizarre that you're even framing this conversation in this way - who are you to say how Apple is allowed to behave, and how anti-competitive they deserve to be on the EU market? Are you under the impression that corporations like Apple should wield more power than world governments? They shouldn't and they don't, but they think they can bully the EU into submission. They wouldn't dare pull this crap in China, they make every concession to be allowed access to the Chinese market. Yet the EU is expected to ask dear Apple for permission to be allowed to regulate their destructive anti-competitive behavior? Insanity.
shuckles 1y ago
The iPhone Pro Max retails for as much as the Samsung Galaxy Ultra, and only one of the two OEMs builds the application platform used by all its developers. What are these "giant profit margins" you're referring to?
- cyberax 1y ago
  Apple SEC report 2023, Q3: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/320193/000032019324000005/a8-kex991q1202412302023.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/320193/0000320193240... Net sales: $119575 billion, net income $33916. Margin: 28%
  - shuckles 1y ago
    Sounds like they have pretty bad margins!
Fwirt 1y ago
Other device manufacturers ship hardware built on pre-existing software with some customizations, often using off-the-shelf drivers and software components. Apple is not only selling you a device, they’re selling you an OS and a quite decent software package including options that compete with other paid software offerings.
- cyberax 1y ago
  And? Apple also benefitted from third-party developers writing software for its platform. Remember the "there's an app for that" ads? I think developers deserve to be treated fairly by Apple, not exploited four different ways. Because to develop for Apple you need: 1. Buy Apple hardware, because Apple doesn't provide cross-platform development tools (unlike Android or even Microsoft). 2. Pay $100 a year just to be able to publish the software. 3. Pay 30% of the app income to Apple (this changed only recently). 4. Have to endure odious restrictions imposed only because Apple wants to keep control of its platform.
  - shuckles 1y ago
    > Pay 30% of the app income to Apple (this changed only recently). This is among the biggest fictions of this crazed argument. Spotify, the company that whines about Apple the most, pays Apple $0 (sorry, $99) for building the entire market for consumer mobile internet upon which their business depends.
    - guillego 1y ago
      How much does Apple pay every networking equipment manufacturer, ISP or carrier upon which its market depends on? Last time I checked Apple devices don't operate on an Apple-exclusive worldwide mobile internet network.
      - shuckles 1y ago
        Apple users pay carriers so much money that for half a decade there was substantial competition to be the exclusive carrier for iPhone and even still carriers will pay Apple users to become their customers through device subsidies.

Look in the mirror. Apple makes money by selling devices. With giant profit margins, at that. So why should they be able to charge developers in addition to consumers?

coldtea 1y ago

Because selling devices is orthogonal to maintaining a marketplace and dozens of APIs for third parties to use, and the latter can be charged for as well.

ksec 1y ago
If EU doesn't demand for those API to be free, may be Apple could just have terms and cost for those API to be charged? Basically like Lightning adoptor where Apple collects dollars on accessories sold. I agree on both side some money needs to be exchanged in terms of features and Apple cant have it all to themselves. But currently it doesn't seems both side is listening and no middle ground. One side wants it all for free, the other side dont want their money and wants to keep everything themselves.
- shuckles 1y ago
  Apple proposed something like this with their "Core Technology Fee" which the EU commissioners were upset about. They literally do not want to let Apple directly monetize the R&D it takes to produce an application platform.
  - ksec 1y ago
    I think there is a different in Core Technology Fee and let say Apple Translation Software Fees. One is too broad while another one is specific. Apple could theoretically give away that translation software as bundle of AirPod. And see that software for a cost to other user or third party.
  - cyberax 1y ago
    Yeah, because this fee was crazy unreasonable (50 cents per app download).
    - shuckles 1y ago
      Who are you to say what a reasonable price is for Apple’s intellectual property?
      - cyberax 1y ago
        For developers? $0.0 for app publishing. Bandwidth cost for download. We can use AWS egress fees as guidance. Let's see... How much should Apple pay to the European Union to be allowed to sell devices there? I say 50% of gross income?
        shuckles 1y ago
        If we’re posting uneconomic nonsense like it’s Reddit, might as well go big and propose a 99% tax on gross income.
        cyberax 1y ago
        Sure. Totally agree. Maybe even transfer the control of Apple to the EU Commission. They violated the law, so they deserve to be properly disciplined for that.
      - dns_snek 1y ago
        The EU, that's who. The law exists because these policies stifle competition and prevent the proper functioning of the free market and the DMA is a small step to restore the competitive balance. It's bizarre that you're even framing this conversation in this way - who are you to say how Apple is allowed to behave, and how anti-competitive they deserve to be on the EU market? Are you under the impression that corporations like Apple should wield more power than world governments? They shouldn't and they don't, but they think they can bully the EU into submission. They wouldn't dare pull this crap in China, they make every concession to be allowed access to the Chinese market. Yet the EU is expected to ask dear Apple for permission to be allowed to regulate their destructive anti-competitive behavior? Insanity.

shuckles 1y ago

The iPhone Pro Max retails for as much as the Samsung Galaxy Ultra, and only one of the two OEMs builds the application platform used by all its developers. What are these "giant profit margins" you're referring to?

cyberax 1y ago
Apple SEC report 2023, Q3: https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/320193/000032019324000005/a8-kex991q1202412302023.htm https://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/320193/0000320193240... Net sales: $119575 billion, net income $33916. Margin: 28%
- shuckles 1y ago
  Sounds like they have pretty bad margins!

Fwirt 1y ago

Other device manufacturers ship hardware built on pre-existing software with some customizations, often using off-the-shelf drivers and software components. Apple is not only selling you a device, they’re selling you an OS and a quite decent software package including options that compete with other paid software offerings.

cyberax 1y ago
And? Apple also benefitted from third-party developers writing software for its platform. Remember the "there's an app for that" ads? I think developers deserve to be treated fairly by Apple, not exploited four different ways. Because to develop for Apple you need: 1. Buy Apple hardware, because Apple doesn't provide cross-platform development tools (unlike Android or even Microsoft). 2. Pay $100 a year just to be able to publish the software. 3. Pay 30% of the app income to Apple (this changed only recently). 4. Have to endure odious restrictions imposed only because Apple wants to keep control of its platform.
- shuckles 1y ago
  > Pay 30% of the app income to Apple (this changed only recently). This is among the biggest fictions of this crazed argument. Spotify, the company that whines about Apple the most, pays Apple $0 (sorry, $99) for building the entire market for consumer mobile internet upon which their business depends.
  - guillego 1y ago
    How much does Apple pay every networking equipment manufacturer, ISP or carrier upon which its market depends on? Last time I checked Apple devices don't operate on an Apple-exclusive worldwide mobile internet network.
    - shuckles 1y ago
      Apple users pay carriers so much money that for half a decade there was substantial competition to be the exclusive carrier for iPhone and even still carriers will pay Apple users to become their customers through device subsidies.