3 ms·

Wait which federal agent "generated" the kidnapping plot?

mothballed 1y ago
They were mostly FBI informants instead of agents, acting as FBI assets. FBI informant "Big Dan" was the guy that drove them to the supposed casing of Whitmer's vacation home, acted as one of the leaders of the militia, and he also spent hours and hours planning the kidnapping. For one. (from memory, the FBI even supplied the addresses to case). FBI credit cards bought a lot of the ammunition and the stuff involved in the plot. I believe Caserta (not guilty) was referencing him when in his interviews he talked about how the guys training them were FBI assets as referenced in wikipedia "Chappel taught the group tactical skills he had learned in the U.S. Army." A confidential FBI informant known as "Big Dan," identified in court as Dan Chappel, testified that he drove plotters involved in the scheme to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. Chappel also drove with Adam Fox, the group's ringleader, to scout Whitmer's vacation home. (google AI) Dan Chappel (born c. 1987), nicknamed "Big Dan", an Army veteran who served in the Iraq War. He has stated that he joined the Wolverine Watchmen in 2020 after finding them on Facebook, wanting to keep up his firearms skills, but contacted law enforcement after seeing the group's radicalization.[109] After becoming an informant, Chappel became the group's "XO", or executive officer, the second-highest rank in the group,[110] and then its highest-ranked officer after Morrison departed the group due to marital problems.[110] Chappel taught the group tactical skills he had learned in the U.S. Army,[110] offered the group use of a credit card (paid for by the FBI) to buy ammunition and supplies,[111] and in summer 2020 spent hours on the phone with Fox planning the kidnapping.[110] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_pl...
- cosmicgadget 1y ago
  That article says Musico came up with the kidnapping plot, not the government.
  - mothballed 1y ago
    Lol you just brushed aside all the generating the FBI did, which i cant beleive is an act of good faith. You know they convicted a bunch of other people that helped generate the plot too right? Not even the FBI subscribes to your idea that only the guy that initially came up with the general idea is culpable, assuming it was Musico ( and even then, to become a conspiracy you need an overt act and not just an idea... like fbi informants helping people buy ammunition or driving them to case a house). The FBI provided the training, ammunition, addresses, and driving. If the best counterpoint is another crackpot conspirator had allegedly the initial mere idea (which, depending how it is conveyed, may not even be illegal merely as speech if not calling for imminent action or soliciting or threatening to actually do it), well I rest my case about their involvement in generating the conspiracy.
    - cosmicgadget 1y ago
      Perhaps we aren't seeing the term 'generate' in exactly the same way. I took your meaning to be "the government hatched a kidnapping plot and suckered some libertarians into going along with it". You understand this is a much different scenario from "the FBI let confidential informants play their part as militia members but let the conspirators fully bake their plan." > If the best counterpoint is another crackpot conspirator had allegedly the initial mere idea (which, depending how it is conveyed, may not even be illegal Seems like exactly the reason the feds would have to allow the conspiracy to develop. What would you have them do? Give them a stern warning and let them know who their informants were?
      - mothballed 1y ago
        The government hatched a large part of the plot, it seems though, then roped a bunch of people into court who jurors found not guilty. I think it impossible to know who came up with the mere idea first. You'd have to prove a negative that no one else did which seems impossible. So the assertion regarding Musico is questionable, at best you could assert he did utter the idea at some point. >eems like exactly the reason the feds would have to allow the conspiracy to develop You're speaking of alternate reality. Fed assets trained , funded, planned, and encouraged it. They weren't 'allowing it' -- they were actively creating it. No i dont condone that.

They were mostly FBI informants instead of agents, acting as FBI assets. FBI informant "Big Dan" was the guy that drove them to the supposed casing of Whitmer's vacation home, acted as one of the leaders of the militia, and he also spent hours and hours planning the kidnapping. For one. (from memory, the FBI even supplied the addresses to case). FBI credit cards bought a lot of the ammunition and the stuff involved in the plot. I believe Caserta (not guilty) was referencing him when in his interviews he talked about how the guys training them were FBI assets as referenced in wikipedia "Chappel taught the group tactical skills he had learned in the U.S. Army." A confidential FBI informant known as "Big Dan," identified in court as Dan Chappel, testified that he drove plotters involved in the scheme to kidnap Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer. Chappel also drove with Adam Fox, the group's ringleader, to scout Whitmer's vacation home. (google AI) Dan Chappel (born c. 1987), nicknamed "Big Dan", an Army veteran who served in the Iraq War. He has stated that he joined the Wolverine Watchmen in 2020 after finding them on Facebook, wanting to keep up his firearms skills, but contacted law enforcement after seeing the group's radicalization.[109] After becoming an informant, Chappel became the group's "XO", or executive officer, the second-highest rank in the group,[110] and then its highest-ranked officer after Morrison departed the group due to marital problems.[110] Chappel taught the group tactical skills he had learned in the U.S. Army,[110] offered the group use of a credit card (paid for by the FBI) to buy ammunition and supplies,[111] and in summer 2020 spent hours on the phone with Fox planning the kidnapping.[110] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_plot https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_pl...

cosmicgadget 1y ago
That article says Musico came up with the kidnapping plot, not the government.
- mothballed 1y ago
  Lol you just brushed aside all the generating the FBI did, which i cant beleive is an act of good faith. You know they convicted a bunch of other people that helped generate the plot too right? Not even the FBI subscribes to your idea that only the guy that initially came up with the general idea is culpable, assuming it was Musico ( and even then, to become a conspiracy you need an overt act and not just an idea... like fbi informants helping people buy ammunition or driving them to case a house). The FBI provided the training, ammunition, addresses, and driving. If the best counterpoint is another crackpot conspirator had allegedly the initial mere idea (which, depending how it is conveyed, may not even be illegal merely as speech if not calling for imminent action or soliciting or threatening to actually do it), well I rest my case about their involvement in generating the conspiracy.
  - cosmicgadget 1y ago
    Perhaps we aren't seeing the term 'generate' in exactly the same way. I took your meaning to be "the government hatched a kidnapping plot and suckered some libertarians into going along with it". You understand this is a much different scenario from "the FBI let confidential informants play their part as militia members but let the conspirators fully bake their plan." > If the best counterpoint is another crackpot conspirator had allegedly the initial mere idea (which, depending how it is conveyed, may not even be illegal Seems like exactly the reason the feds would have to allow the conspiracy to develop. What would you have them do? Give them a stern warning and let them know who their informants were?
    - mothballed 1y ago
      The government hatched a large part of the plot, it seems though, then roped a bunch of people into court who jurors found not guilty. I think it impossible to know who came up with the mere idea first. You'd have to prove a negative that no one else did which seems impossible. So the assertion regarding Musico is questionable, at best you could assert he did utter the idea at some point. >eems like exactly the reason the feds would have to allow the conspiracy to develop You're speaking of alternate reality. Fed assets trained , funded, planned, and encouraged it. They weren't 'allowing it' -- they were actively creating it. No i dont condone that.