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I don’t disagree with your diagnosis of American culture, but the tip thing is just shifting wages from employer to customer. It’s no different from VAT versus

I don’t disagree with your diagnosis of American culture, but the tip thing is just shifting wages from employer to customer. It’s no different from VAT versus sales tax: same result, different math. Opting not to tip when it is part of the economic transaction is no different from walking out with the silverware; not expressly forbidden, just a breach of social contract.

gchamonlive 1y ago
Then why call it a tip? It's just cynical then, which I don't know what's worse.
- brookst 1y ago
  Plenty of customs don’t make logical sense, and plenty of words have dramatically changed meaning over time. Don’t read too much into the word. A “fine” used to mean a voluntary settlement.
  - gchamonlive 1y ago
    You are right, I wasn't really thinking about how customs evolve organically. Outrage kinda blinded me because that experience was such a culture clash that clouded my understanding. Thanks. I mean, I still feel like using the word "tip" for something that is culturally not optional, even though you can opt out, is unnecessarily confusing and hostile, but that's what respecting foreign culture is all about.
AlecSchueler 1y ago
> walking out with the silverware; not expressly forbidden Isn't property theft very expressly forbidden?
ToucanLoucan 1y ago
It's absolutely different because a customer is not legally required to tip, and if a customer decides not to, that is directly impacting a worker's take-home pay. And walking out with silverware is theft, I genuinely have no idea where you pulled that from as a similar example.
- deleted 1y ago
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at-w 1y ago
>It’s no different from VAT versus sales tax: same result, different math. There's lots of evidence that tips vary significantly based on the traits of the customer (like the customer's self-esteem and sense of shame: https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/ijchm-02-2019-0127/full/html?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/ijchm-02...) and the employee asking for the tip (e.g. attractiveness and simple demographic characteristics: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S016748701500046X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01674...).
deleted 1y ago
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lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
> when it is part of the economic transaction Well, shit, if I made it part of the economic transaction, you'd have a point. What you're saying is that the employers are not holding up their end of the transaction.

gchamonlive 1y ago

Then why call it a tip? It's just cynical then, which I don't know what's worse.

brookst 1y ago
Plenty of customs don’t make logical sense, and plenty of words have dramatically changed meaning over time. Don’t read too much into the word. A “fine” used to mean a voluntary settlement.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  You are right, I wasn't really thinking about how customs evolve organically. Outrage kinda blinded me because that experience was such a culture clash that clouded my understanding. Thanks. I mean, I still feel like using the word "tip" for something that is culturally not optional, even though you can opt out, is unnecessarily confusing and hostile, but that's what respecting foreign culture is all about.

AlecSchueler 1y ago

> walking out with the silverware; not expressly forbidden Isn't property theft very expressly forbidden?

ToucanLoucan 1y ago

It's absolutely different because a customer is not legally required to tip, and if a customer decides not to, that is directly impacting a worker's take-home pay. And walking out with silverware is theft, I genuinely have no idea where you pulled that from as a similar example.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]

at-w 1y ago

>It’s no different from VAT versus sales tax: same result, different math. There's lots of evidence that tips vary significantly based on the traits of the customer (like the customer's self-esteem and sense of shame: https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/ijchm-02-2019-0127/full/html?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/ijchm-02...) and the employee asking for the tip (e.g. attractiveness and simple demographic characteristics: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S016748701500046X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01674...).

deleted 1y ago

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lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago

> when it is part of the economic transaction Well, shit, if I made it part of the economic transaction, you'd have a point. What you're saying is that the employers are not holding up their end of the transaction.