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Yeah, it's optional but if you don't tip everybody loses their minds. I've experienced this once abroad, I was with a group of exchange students that didn't wan

Yeah, it's optional but if you don't tip everybody loses their minds. I've experienced this once abroad, I was with a group of exchange students that didn't want to pay the tip because students are always broke, and the cashier was mad to the point of being aggressive. In Brazil we have 10% tip which you can opt out, and we usually do it when there is a problem with the service, but I wouldn't think twice to ask for the tip to be excluded if I was undergoing financial hardships, and I'm sure nobody would bat an eye. I think it's not just the tip culture that is toxic. I feel like the entire American culture is plagued by toxic masculinity, the gun culture and hyper individuality.

brookst 1y ago
I don’t disagree with your diagnosis of American culture, but the tip thing is just shifting wages from employer to customer. It’s no different from VAT versus sales tax: same result, different math. Opting not to tip when it is part of the economic transaction is no different from walking out with the silverware; not expressly forbidden, just a breach of social contract.
- gchamonlive 1y ago
  Then why call it a tip? It's just cynical then, which I don't know what's worse.
  - brookst 1y ago
    Plenty of customs don’t make logical sense, and plenty of words have dramatically changed meaning over time. Don’t read too much into the word. A “fine” used to mean a voluntary settlement.
    - gchamonlive 1y ago
      You are right, I wasn't really thinking about how customs evolve organically. Outrage kinda blinded me because that experience was such a culture clash that clouded my understanding. Thanks. I mean, I still feel like using the word "tip" for something that is culturally not optional, even though you can opt out, is unnecessarily confusing and hostile, but that's what respecting foreign culture is all about.
- AlecSchueler 1y ago
  > walking out with the silverware; not expressly forbidden Isn't property theft very expressly forbidden?
- ToucanLoucan 1y ago
  It's absolutely different because a customer is not legally required to tip, and if a customer decides not to, that is directly impacting a worker's take-home pay. And walking out with silverware is theft, I genuinely have no idea where you pulled that from as a similar example.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
- at-w 1y ago
  >It’s no different from VAT versus sales tax: same result, different math. There's lots of evidence that tips vary significantly based on the traits of the customer (like the customer's self-esteem and sense of shame: https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/ijchm-02-2019-0127/full/html?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/ijchm-02...) and the employee asking for the tip (e.g. attractiveness and simple demographic characteristics: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S016748701500046X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01674...).
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
  > when it is part of the economic transaction Well, shit, if I made it part of the economic transaction, you'd have a point. What you're saying is that the employers are not holding up their end of the transaction.
drdec 1y ago
In America, at least in restaurants, employers are allowed to pay a lower minimum wage to tipped employees. So tips are an essential part of a servers compensation and should not be considered optional. Let me put it another way for my foreign friends - if you are dining at a restaurant in America with table service, you need to consider (at least) a 15% tip as part of the base cost. If you can't afford that, then you can't afford to eat out, choose a different option.
- j7ake 1y ago
  It this lower wage true for states like California?
  - __s 1y ago
    https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped 16.50 in California, 20 for fast food workers
  - scarby2 1y ago
    as the other commenters didn't answer the question: No, it is not true for California
- scarby2 1y ago
  > In America, at least in restaurants, employers are allowed to pay a lower minimum wage to tipped employees. So tips are an essential part of a servers compensation and should not be considered optional. This actually varies state by state. In Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington the minimum wage does not change tipped vs non-tipped. Also in other states if the pay after tips do not meet the state minimum wage the employer is required to make up this difference. If you actually look at the data tipped employees make significantly more vs median income in countries with tipping than without. > If you can't afford that, then you can't afford to eat out, choose a different option. I think this works if we're talking about a full restaurant, If we're talking about a mostly empty restaurant then even a 5% tip is money that the server would have not otherwise had, pretty certain they'd choose more money over less.

brookst 1y ago

I don’t disagree with your diagnosis of American culture, but the tip thing is just shifting wages from employer to customer. It’s no different from VAT versus sales tax: same result, different math. Opting not to tip when it is part of the economic transaction is no different from walking out with the silverware; not expressly forbidden, just a breach of social contract.

gchamonlive 1y ago
Then why call it a tip? It's just cynical then, which I don't know what's worse.
- brookst 1y ago
  Plenty of customs don’t make logical sense, and plenty of words have dramatically changed meaning over time. Don’t read too much into the word. A “fine” used to mean a voluntary settlement.
  - gchamonlive 1y ago
    You are right, I wasn't really thinking about how customs evolve organically. Outrage kinda blinded me because that experience was such a culture clash that clouded my understanding. Thanks. I mean, I still feel like using the word "tip" for something that is culturally not optional, even though you can opt out, is unnecessarily confusing and hostile, but that's what respecting foreign culture is all about.
AlecSchueler 1y ago
> walking out with the silverware; not expressly forbidden Isn't property theft very expressly forbidden?
ToucanLoucan 1y ago
It's absolutely different because a customer is not legally required to tip, and if a customer decides not to, that is directly impacting a worker's take-home pay. And walking out with silverware is theft, I genuinely have no idea where you pulled that from as a similar example.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
at-w 1y ago
>It’s no different from VAT versus sales tax: same result, different math. There's lots of evidence that tips vary significantly based on the traits of the customer (like the customer's self-esteem and sense of shame: https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/ijchm-02-2019-0127/full/html?utm_source=chatgpt.com https://www.emerald.com/insight/content/doi/10.1108/ijchm-02...) and the employee asking for the tip (e.g. attractiveness and simple demographic characteristics: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S016748701500046X https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S01674...).
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
lcnPylGDnU4H9OF 1y ago
> when it is part of the economic transaction Well, shit, if I made it part of the economic transaction, you'd have a point. What you're saying is that the employers are not holding up their end of the transaction.

drdec 1y ago

In America, at least in restaurants, employers are allowed to pay a lower minimum wage to tipped employees. So tips are an essential part of a servers compensation and should not be considered optional. Let me put it another way for my foreign friends - if you are dining at a restaurant in America with table service, you need to consider (at least) a 15% tip as part of the base cost. If you can't afford that, then you can't afford to eat out, choose a different option.

j7ake 1y ago
It this lower wage true for states like California?
- __s 1y ago
  https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped https://www.dol.gov/agencies/whd/state/minimum-wage/tipped 16.50 in California, 20 for fast food workers
- scarby2 1y ago
  as the other commenters didn't answer the question: No, it is not true for California
scarby2 1y ago
> In America, at least in restaurants, employers are allowed to pay a lower minimum wage to tipped employees. So tips are an essential part of a servers compensation and should not be considered optional. This actually varies state by state. In Alaska, California, Minnesota, Montana, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington the minimum wage does not change tipped vs non-tipped. Also in other states if the pay after tips do not meet the state minimum wage the employer is required to make up this difference. If you actually look at the data tipped employees make significantly more vs median income in countries with tipping than without. > If you can't afford that, then you can't afford to eat out, choose a different option. I think this works if we're talking about a full restaurant, If we're talking about a mostly empty restaurant then even a 5% tip is money that the server would have not otherwise had, pretty certain they'd choose more money over less.