4 ms·

If 1% of the users report a given issue (say, data corruption), the fact that 99% of the users report that they don't experience it, doesn't mean that the issue

If 1% of the users report a given issue (say, data corruption), the fact that 99% of the users report that they don't experience it, doesn't mean that the issue is not critical.

izacus 1y ago
The fact that you see an issue reported loudly on social media it doesn't mean it's critical or more common than for other FSes. As usual with all these Linux debates, there's a loud group grinding their old hatreds that can be decade old.
happymellon 1y ago
> If 1% of the users report a given issue (say, data corruption If 0.1% of users say it corrupted for them, and then don't provide any further details and no one can replicate their scenario then it does make it hard to resolve it
- koverstreet 1y ago
  the btrfs devs are also famous for being unresponsive to these sorts of issues. there's a feedback effect: if users know that a filesystem takes these kinds of issues seriously and will drop what they're doing and jump on them, a lot of users will very happily spend the time reporting bugs and working with devs to get it resolved. people don't like wasting their time on bug reports that go into the void. they do like contributing their time when they know it's going to get their issue fixed and make things better for everyone. this is why I regularly tell people "FEED ME YOUR BUG REPORTS! I WANT THEM ALL!" it's just what you have to do if you want your code to be truly bulletproof.
  - jcalvinowens 1y ago
    > the btrfs devs are also famous for being unresponsive to these sorts No, Kent, they are not. Posting attacks like this without evidence is cowardly and dishonest. I'm not going to tolerate these screeds from you about people I've worked with and respect without calling you out. Every time you spew this toxicity, a chunk of bcachefs users reformat and walk away. Very soon, you'll have none left.
    - koverstreet 1y ago
      What are they famous for then? High quality, trustworthy code? It doesn't matter if you want to "tolerate" it if every time there's a filesystem thread there's stories about lost filesystem and unfixed bugs, and the rare times people try to report bugs or issues they go nowhere. You're ranting about reality, and somehow I doubt you were ever a user of mine. I've worked hard to establish an engineering community where no one has to be afraid to point out broken shit, including and especially in my code, and I wouldn't want your attitude anywhere near it.
      - jcalvinowens 1y ago
        > What are they famous for then? High quality, trustworthy code? Absolutely. Demonstrably much moreso than you over the past decade. > I've worked hard to establish an engineering community where no one has to be afraid to point out broken shit, You have failed. Look at this conversation: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/fe51512baa18e1480ce997fc535813ce6a0b0721.1708286962.git.jcalvinowens@gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/fe51512baa18e1480ce997fc535813c... Do you think Arnd, David, and Russell feel like they were rewarded for pointing out your broken shit? I doubt it. I certainly don't. You were so completely and obviously in the wrong there I have difficulty believing it was real. I'm not replying to you again. Good luck :)
        koverstreet 1y ago
        HAH Not comparable to losing filesystems, sorry...
const_cast 1y ago
The problem is every filesystem can experience data corruption. That doesn't tell us anything about how it relates to BTRFS. Also, filesystems just work. Nobody is gonna say "oh I'm using fileystem X and it works!" because that's the default. So, naturally, 99% of the stuff you'll hear about filesystems is when they don't work. Don't believe me? Look up NTFS and read through reddit or stackexchange or whatever. Not a lot of happy campers.
- koverstreet 1y ago
  Do you see the same reports about ext4 or XFS? I don't.
  - happymellon 1y ago
    https://forum.endeavouros.com/t/6-1-64-1-lts-kernel-linux-lts-can-cause-non-serious-data-loss-on-ext4-filesystem/48938 https://forum.endeavouros.com/t/6-1-64-1-lts-kernel-linux-lt... It's also the reason I am completely against the Debian "backporting" methodology to pretend they aren't using the new version of something.
    - koverstreet 1y ago
      yeah there's no real QA process for the stable trees
    - kasabali 1y ago
      That bug had nothing to do with Debian. Follow the reports in the fine thread you've linked and you'll see it was an upstream issue. Debian doesn't "backport" anything, they ship upstream LTS kernels straight, so please stop spreading this misinformation. For some bizarre reason I can't conceive people not only believe but also keep complaining that Debian ships franken-kernels like RHEL does. See [0] for another instance. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44849988 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44849988
- eptcyka 1y ago
  I had a power failure and I lost the whole filesystem. Never happened with ext4 - I've had data loss after a power failure with other filesystems, but never an issue where I wasn't able to mount it and lost 100% of my data.

If 1% of the users report a given issue (say, data corruption), the fact that 99% of the users report that they don't experience it, doesn't mean that the issue is not critical.

izacus 1y ago

The fact that you see an issue reported loudly on social media it doesn't mean it's critical or more common than for other FSes. As usual with all these Linux debates, there's a loud group grinding their old hatreds that can be decade old.

happymellon 1y ago

> If 1% of the users report a given issue (say, data corruption If 0.1% of users say it corrupted for them, and then don't provide any further details and no one can replicate their scenario then it does make it hard to resolve it

koverstreet 1y ago
the btrfs devs are also famous for being unresponsive to these sorts of issues. there's a feedback effect: if users know that a filesystem takes these kinds of issues seriously and will drop what they're doing and jump on them, a lot of users will very happily spend the time reporting bugs and working with devs to get it resolved. people don't like wasting their time on bug reports that go into the void. they do like contributing their time when they know it's going to get their issue fixed and make things better for everyone. this is why I regularly tell people "FEED ME YOUR BUG REPORTS! I WANT THEM ALL!" it's just what you have to do if you want your code to be truly bulletproof.
- jcalvinowens 1y ago
  > the btrfs devs are also famous for being unresponsive to these sorts No, Kent, they are not. Posting attacks like this without evidence is cowardly and dishonest. I'm not going to tolerate these screeds from you about people I've worked with and respect without calling you out. Every time you spew this toxicity, a chunk of bcachefs users reformat and walk away. Very soon, you'll have none left.
  - koverstreet 1y ago
    What are they famous for then? High quality, trustworthy code? It doesn't matter if you want to "tolerate" it if every time there's a filesystem thread there's stories about lost filesystem and unfixed bugs, and the rare times people try to report bugs or issues they go nowhere. You're ranting about reality, and somehow I doubt you were ever a user of mine. I've worked hard to establish an engineering community where no one has to be afraid to point out broken shit, including and especially in my code, and I wouldn't want your attitude anywhere near it.
    - jcalvinowens 1y ago
      > What are they famous for then? High quality, trustworthy code? Absolutely. Demonstrably much moreso than you over the past decade. > I've worked hard to establish an engineering community where no one has to be afraid to point out broken shit, You have failed. Look at this conversation: https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/fe51512baa18e1480ce997fc535813ce6a0b0721.1708286962.git.jcalvinowens@gmail.com/ https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/fe51512baa18e1480ce997fc535813c... Do you think Arnd, David, and Russell feel like they were rewarded for pointing out your broken shit? I doubt it. I certainly don't. You were so completely and obviously in the wrong there I have difficulty believing it was real. I'm not replying to you again. Good luck :)
      - koverstreet 1y ago
        HAH Not comparable to losing filesystems, sorry...

const_cast 1y ago

The problem is every filesystem can experience data corruption. That doesn't tell us anything about how it relates to BTRFS. Also, filesystems just work. Nobody is gonna say "oh I'm using fileystem X and it works!" because that's the default. So, naturally, 99% of the stuff you'll hear about filesystems is when they don't work. Don't believe me? Look up NTFS and read through reddit or stackexchange or whatever. Not a lot of happy campers.

koverstreet 1y ago
Do you see the same reports about ext4 or XFS? I don't.
- happymellon 1y ago
  https://forum.endeavouros.com/t/6-1-64-1-lts-kernel-linux-lts-can-cause-non-serious-data-loss-on-ext4-filesystem/48938 https://forum.endeavouros.com/t/6-1-64-1-lts-kernel-linux-lt... It's also the reason I am completely against the Debian "backporting" methodology to pretend they aren't using the new version of something.
  - koverstreet 1y ago
    yeah there's no real QA process for the stable trees
  - kasabali 1y ago
    That bug had nothing to do with Debian. Follow the reports in the fine thread you've linked and you'll see it was an upstream issue. Debian doesn't "backport" anything, they ship upstream LTS kernels straight, so please stop spreading this misinformation. For some bizarre reason I can't conceive people not only believe but also keep complaining that Debian ships franken-kernels like RHEL does. See [0] for another instance. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44849988 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44849988
eptcyka 1y ago
I had a power failure and I lost the whole filesystem. Never happened with ext4 - I've had data loss after a power failure with other filesystems, but never an issue where I wasn't able to mount it and lost 100% of my data.