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> Wealth inequality isn't great but the existence of wealthy people in successful countries helps fund service for the entire population. I think it does the o

by TFYS 1y ago

> Wealth inequality isn't great but the existence of wealthy people in successful countries helps fund service for the entire population. I think it does the opposite. Those services were mostly built during the last century after the war when conditions were just right for people to get those policies implemented. Since then the wealthy have mostly been lobbying against those services, dodging taxes, spreading propaganda justifying the inequality, etc. Now we're seeing the results of this work by the wealthy. I also think it's wrong to assume the wealthy are the creators of that wealth just because they have it. It can also be the result of using positions of power to get a larger share of a pie baked by a lot of people.

YZF 1y ago
This is factually not true. For example: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110005501 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=111000... The top 1% of highest income in Canada pays 21-22% of the taxes. Their share of the income is about 10%. So they "rich" are paying for services everyone else is getting. The top 10% pay 54% (!) of the taxes. Their share of income is about 34%. The top 0.1% pays about 8-9% of the taxes. So in Canada the rich are absolutely paying for the services everyone else gets. That's before accounting for their indirect contributions to the economy by running businesses, employing people, taxes paid by companies, etc. Maybe some random billionaire has some scheme that reduces their taxes. But most of the the rich pay way more taxes than others.
- TFYS 1y ago
  I wouldn't call people working for a salary rich, which most of the people in those groups are. They pay plenty of taxes and many of them probably support funding public services as well. I meant the actually wealthy, who use their political power to reduce those services and the taxes they need to pay. They don't help fund them unless they are forced to, and currently they are not because the political power of their wealth has become larger than the political power of regular people.
  - YZF 1y ago
    Most people in the top 0.1% are quite rich. There are quite a few CEOs and founders of large companies that are billionaires from income they got from those companies (and paid taxes on). Maybe you need to give me more examples. Who are "actually wealthy" people in Canada who do not pay any taxes whatsoever and contribute nothing to the local economy/country? e.g. they avoid paying GST or HST, they avoid paying property taxes, they don't pay capital gains taxes? I do agree that some rich people (and also not rich people) campaign for a smaller government and less taxes. I don't think that's an unreasonable position. There is a sweet spot for taxation and taxes in Canada are quite high. It's not a zero sum game (e.g. we have people leaving Canada to go to lower tax countries like the US).
    - tossandthrow 1y ago
      There are many books on this, you can start by picking up eg. Marianna mazucato and rutger bregmann to get some contemporary views. In unequal societies governance is controlled by less people and they tend to divert money into activities that increase their wealth instead of benefitting everyone - this has in particular happened in the west over the past 40 years.
      - YZF 1y ago
        Show me the data. Everything I see around me, in data and anecdotally, tells me that in my unequal society (Canada) everyone is doing better and governance is not controlled by rich people. The current government that won the elections would not be the preferred government of the ultra rich who want to make a little more money on the backs of everything else (which honestly is not a thing as far I can tell). Marianna Mazucato's writings look interesting but I'd have to dig in more. Rutger Bregman seems like much less of an expert in the domain and I'm not sure his ideas vibe with me but might take a look.
        TFYS 1y ago
        Thomas Piketty has collected that data. He showed that the rate of return for capital is larger than the rate of growth, meaning capital owners are getting an ever increasing share of the economic output. Income inequality doesn't really account for this, look into wealth inequality. The wealthy are also good at hiding their wealth to avoid taxation and publicity, I'm not sure how much the studies consider that.
- tossandthrow 1y ago
  Try for just one minute and don't think about this in terms of money, and you will see why your argument is completely failing. It is clear that one rich person who leisurely spend their morning getting ready for a business meeting does not provide any care to any elderly. Your comment is clear example of the type of misinformation that got us here. In the end money is an institution. You can only get things done, I if someone are willing to take money for work. And that only works when there is a certain level og equality.
- bluecheese452 1y ago
  So their after tax income is far higher than their share of the population? Give me 50% of a country’s income and I will be more than happy to pay 60% of the tax.
  - naijaboiler 1y ago
    Heck I will gladly pay 90%
  - YZF 1y ago
    Why should they pay for more than they get? Not fair. Start a successful business, take some chances, and maybe you'll pay more tax. Heck- many software engineers are likely in the top 10% in Canada.
- ratelimitsteve 1y ago
  when you calculate their share of wealth you only include income. when you calculate their share of taxes do you only include income tax?
- Jepacor 1y ago
  The percentages really don't tell you that much. To illustrate with an extreme exemple, if the top 0.1% earns a million, and the government taxes a single dollar on them and nothing on anyone else, the top 0.1% would pay 100% of the taxes. But it obviously would not be enough to help people in need. I don't know the particular situation for Canada, but I know that welfare benefits are getting worse in my country (France)

by TFYS 1y ago

YZF 1y ago

This is factually not true. For example: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110005501 https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=111000... The top 1% of highest income in Canada pays 21-22% of the taxes. Their share of the income is about 10%. So they "rich" are paying for services everyone else is getting. The top 10% pay 54% (!) of the taxes. Their share of income is about 34%. The top 0.1% pays about 8-9% of the taxes. So in Canada the rich are absolutely paying for the services everyone else gets. That's before accounting for their indirect contributions to the economy by running businesses, employing people, taxes paid by companies, etc. Maybe some random billionaire has some scheme that reduces their taxes. But most of the the rich pay way more taxes than others.

TFYS 1y ago
I wouldn't call people working for a salary rich, which most of the people in those groups are. They pay plenty of taxes and many of them probably support funding public services as well. I meant the actually wealthy, who use their political power to reduce those services and the taxes they need to pay. They don't help fund them unless they are forced to, and currently they are not because the political power of their wealth has become larger than the political power of regular people.
- YZF 1y ago
  Most people in the top 0.1% are quite rich. There are quite a few CEOs and founders of large companies that are billionaires from income they got from those companies (and paid taxes on). Maybe you need to give me more examples. Who are "actually wealthy" people in Canada who do not pay any taxes whatsoever and contribute nothing to the local economy/country? e.g. they avoid paying GST or HST, they avoid paying property taxes, they don't pay capital gains taxes? I do agree that some rich people (and also not rich people) campaign for a smaller government and less taxes. I don't think that's an unreasonable position. There is a sweet spot for taxation and taxes in Canada are quite high. It's not a zero sum game (e.g. we have people leaving Canada to go to lower tax countries like the US).
  - tossandthrow 1y ago
    There are many books on this, you can start by picking up eg. Marianna mazucato and rutger bregmann to get some contemporary views. In unequal societies governance is controlled by less people and they tend to divert money into activities that increase their wealth instead of benefitting everyone - this has in particular happened in the west over the past 40 years.
    - YZF 1y ago
      Show me the data. Everything I see around me, in data and anecdotally, tells me that in my unequal society (Canada) everyone is doing better and governance is not controlled by rich people. The current government that won the elections would not be the preferred government of the ultra rich who want to make a little more money on the backs of everything else (which honestly is not a thing as far I can tell). Marianna Mazucato's writings look interesting but I'd have to dig in more. Rutger Bregman seems like much less of an expert in the domain and I'm not sure his ideas vibe with me but might take a look.
      - TFYS 1y ago
        Thomas Piketty has collected that data. He showed that the rate of return for capital is larger than the rate of growth, meaning capital owners are getting an ever increasing share of the economic output. Income inequality doesn't really account for this, look into wealth inequality. The wealthy are also good at hiding their wealth to avoid taxation and publicity, I'm not sure how much the studies consider that.
tossandthrow 1y ago
Try for just one minute and don't think about this in terms of money, and you will see why your argument is completely failing. It is clear that one rich person who leisurely spend their morning getting ready for a business meeting does not provide any care to any elderly. Your comment is clear example of the type of misinformation that got us here. In the end money is an institution. You can only get things done, I if someone are willing to take money for work. And that only works when there is a certain level og equality.
bluecheese452 1y ago
So their after tax income is far higher than their share of the population? Give me 50% of a country’s income and I will be more than happy to pay 60% of the tax.
- naijaboiler 1y ago
  Heck I will gladly pay 90%
- YZF 1y ago
  Why should they pay for more than they get? Not fair. Start a successful business, take some chances, and maybe you'll pay more tax. Heck- many software engineers are likely in the top 10% in Canada.
ratelimitsteve 1y ago
when you calculate their share of wealth you only include income. when you calculate their share of taxes do you only include income tax?
Jepacor 1y ago
The percentages really don't tell you that much. To illustrate with an extreme exemple, if the top 0.1% earns a million, and the government taxes a single dollar on them and nothing on anyone else, the top 0.1% would pay 100% of the taxes. But it obviously would not be enough to help people in need. I don't know the particular situation for Canada, but I know that welfare benefits are getting worse in my country (France)