4 ms·

The issue is that you are using Debian stable. Software quickly becomes out of date, sometimes by years, with the exception of security fixes and occasional bac

The issue is that you are using Debian stable. Software quickly becomes out of date, sometimes by years, with the exception of security fixes and occasional backports. Wayland, KDE, and several other pieces of software evolve rapidly. What may be broken in one release will very likely be fixed a few releases after the last debian stable release. I'll run Debian on a server if I need predictability and stability with known issues. I won't run Debian on a desktop or workstation for the same reason.

vlovich123 1y ago
I’m in Arch and I generally struggle to get video acceleration in a browser with an Nvidia GPU.
- levkk 1y ago
  Yup, same, using X, everything mostly works. Wayland - not so much.
- fooker 1y ago
  Wayland + KDE in Arch has worked seamlessly with NVDIA GPUs for a couple of years now.
  - vlovich123 1y ago
    That’s what you’ve heard or been your experience? I’m sitting with SW acceleration in the browser today because some update broke it. I have had it working in the past but I’ve had like 2-3 updates in the past 2 years break it. And for what it’s worth there was a really bad tearing bug because of the argument over implicit and explicit synchronization that neither side wanted to fix. I think it’s since been addressed but that was only like in the past 6 months or something. So it’s definitely not been “years” since it’s been working seamlessly. Things break at a greater rate than X because X basically is frozen and isn’t getting updates.
    - fooker 1y ago
      That has been by experience. Browser seems fine for me. With Arch, you have to read up ahead of time before updating software because it's a rolling release. I remember one breaking change when I was switching from the previous Nvidia drivers to the new 'open' ones, but some breakge was expected with that change.
  - samiv 1y ago
    Yeah, except when it bugs out. Mentioned some things to try to in another comment. I'd be surprised if it was just me seeing these issues...
    - fooker 1y ago
      With an older GPU, things aren't smooth I believe. So it might make sense to avoid Wayland in that case.
      - vlovich123 1y ago
        I’m on a 2080.
        fooker 1y ago
        That's the first supported generation for the official open source drivers. Make sure you have switched over instead of using the old proprietary one.
o11c 1y ago
I've tried distros with faster cadences. All that means is that I get an endless stream of new bugs, rather than a few that I can find workarounds for (such as just reverting to the still-good X11).
- hulitu 1y ago
  > All that means is that I get an endless stream of new bugs, rather than a few For some obscure reason, bugs are easier to produce than fixes. But the next release will be better. I promise.
- MathMonkeyMan 1y ago
  I worked with a guy who railed against the conservatism of our company's releases. He said "new software has more bug fixes." Then again, he was maybe a kind of hardcore software quality guy -- not the sort to add "features" to a piece of infrastructure that had demonstrated its worth. The only issue I have with software conservatism, like Debian, is that some new thing requires something newer. If you live in a world where you can do without the new thing, then it's really quite nice. Security patches are another matter, but are usually dealt with. I like to be on the bleeding edge, but Debian was created for a reason. Only time can determine which configurations don't suck.
heavyset_go 1y ago
This is the way. I used to "hate" Wayland, but that was because I was stuck on an ancient kwin_wayland implementation that didn't get updated for years on Ubuntu. When it comes to big changes like Wayland and Pipewire, you really want the latest versions you can get. Like the OP, I only use rolling releases on my machines for that reason.
- ryukoposting 1y ago
  Even as of Ubuntu 24.04 there's still plenty of stuff that's just broken. Can't stream my screen from Discord, can't share my screen from Firefox. Weird color problems with my calibrated monitor. Switching to Xorg solved all of these issues. I'm open to moving to Debian testing/unstable if Wayland can actually deliver. What do you run?
  - imp0cat 1y ago
    can't share my screen from Firefox Did you install Firefox manually or do you use the Firefox Snap that's provided by Ubuntu?
    - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
      Regardless, that's still a huge Linux usability issue when the user needs to know for sure the specific source to install a friggin web browser where screen sharing works.
      - neobrain 1y ago
        Indeed, though not so much Linux but rather a Ubuntu-specific issue. Most (all?) other distributions don't distribute Firefox as a Snap, so screen sharing will work out of the box.
        imp0cat 1y ago
        Oh I absolutely agree. I've seen way too many people fall into this trap, install Firefox from Snap, Zoom client from Snap, what could possibly go wrong? Turns out, quite a lot!
hulitu 1y ago
> What may be broken in one release will very likely be fixed a few releases after the last debian stable release This joke is being told since 20 years. If it is fixed in KDE5, why do they need KDE6 ?
- bmicraft 1y ago
  It wasn't fixed in plasma 5 and it is in Plasma 6.
eikenberry 1y ago
Stability is just as valuable for a workstation as it is for a server.
monegator 1y ago
And yet i tried setting up manjaro to see what all the fuss was about with arch based systems. In less than ten minutes i understood the origin of all the krashes memes. I've been running debian stable (with backports) as my desktop for a couple of years now, I find that KDE is updated enough, and wayland is stable enough (on my hardware, of course, a 13 year old macbook and a 8 year old NUC).. honestly, as a simple user, i haven't appreciated any difference between X and wayland sessions, so i just login into wayland.
- heavyset_go 1y ago
  Manjaro is a notorious mess, don't let its poor implementation sour you on Arch based distros
pas 1y ago
> evolve rapidly ... um, okay, that's true, although in the last 10+ years it did not "rapidly" reach stability
samiv 1y ago
Software doesn't magically become "stale" by itself. It's deliberately broken by PEOPLE who DECIDE TO BREAK IT.

vlovich123 1y ago

I’m in Arch and I generally struggle to get video acceleration in a browser with an Nvidia GPU.

levkk 1y ago
Yup, same, using X, everything mostly works. Wayland - not so much.
fooker 1y ago
Wayland + KDE in Arch has worked seamlessly with NVDIA GPUs for a couple of years now.
- vlovich123 1y ago
  That’s what you’ve heard or been your experience? I’m sitting with SW acceleration in the browser today because some update broke it. I have had it working in the past but I’ve had like 2-3 updates in the past 2 years break it. And for what it’s worth there was a really bad tearing bug because of the argument over implicit and explicit synchronization that neither side wanted to fix. I think it’s since been addressed but that was only like in the past 6 months or something. So it’s definitely not been “years” since it’s been working seamlessly. Things break at a greater rate than X because X basically is frozen and isn’t getting updates.
  - fooker 1y ago
    That has been by experience. Browser seems fine for me. With Arch, you have to read up ahead of time before updating software because it's a rolling release. I remember one breaking change when I was switching from the previous Nvidia drivers to the new 'open' ones, but some breakge was expected with that change.
- samiv 1y ago
  Yeah, except when it bugs out. Mentioned some things to try to in another comment. I'd be surprised if it was just me seeing these issues...
  - fooker 1y ago
    With an older GPU, things aren't smooth I believe. So it might make sense to avoid Wayland in that case.
    - vlovich123 1y ago
      I’m on a 2080.
      - fooker 1y ago
        That's the first supported generation for the official open source drivers. Make sure you have switched over instead of using the old proprietary one.

o11c 1y ago

I've tried distros with faster cadences. All that means is that I get an endless stream of new bugs, rather than a few that I can find workarounds for (such as just reverting to the still-good X11).

hulitu 1y ago
> All that means is that I get an endless stream of new bugs, rather than a few For some obscure reason, bugs are easier to produce than fixes. But the next release will be better. I promise.
MathMonkeyMan 1y ago
I worked with a guy who railed against the conservatism of our company's releases. He said "new software has more bug fixes." Then again, he was maybe a kind of hardcore software quality guy -- not the sort to add "features" to a piece of infrastructure that had demonstrated its worth. The only issue I have with software conservatism, like Debian, is that some new thing requires something newer. If you live in a world where you can do without the new thing, then it's really quite nice. Security patches are another matter, but are usually dealt with. I like to be on the bleeding edge, but Debian was created for a reason. Only time can determine which configurations don't suck.

heavyset_go 1y ago

This is the way. I used to "hate" Wayland, but that was because I was stuck on an ancient kwin_wayland implementation that didn't get updated for years on Ubuntu. When it comes to big changes like Wayland and Pipewire, you really want the latest versions you can get. Like the OP, I only use rolling releases on my machines for that reason.

ryukoposting 1y ago
Even as of Ubuntu 24.04 there's still plenty of stuff that's just broken. Can't stream my screen from Discord, can't share my screen from Firefox. Weird color problems with my calibrated monitor. Switching to Xorg solved all of these issues. I'm open to moving to Debian testing/unstable if Wayland can actually deliver. What do you run?
- imp0cat 1y ago
  can't share my screen from Firefox Did you install Firefox manually or do you use the Firefox Snap that's provided by Ubuntu?
  - FirmwareBurner 1y ago
    Regardless, that's still a huge Linux usability issue when the user needs to know for sure the specific source to install a friggin web browser where screen sharing works.
    - neobrain 1y ago
      Indeed, though not so much Linux but rather a Ubuntu-specific issue. Most (all?) other distributions don't distribute Firefox as a Snap, so screen sharing will work out of the box.
      - imp0cat 1y ago
        Oh I absolutely agree. I've seen way too many people fall into this trap, install Firefox from Snap, Zoom client from Snap, what could possibly go wrong? Turns out, quite a lot!

hulitu 1y ago

> What may be broken in one release will very likely be fixed a few releases after the last debian stable release This joke is being told since 20 years. If it is fixed in KDE5, why do they need KDE6 ?

bmicraft 1y ago
It wasn't fixed in plasma 5 and it is in Plasma 6.

eikenberry 1y ago

Stability is just as valuable for a workstation as it is for a server.

monegator 1y ago

And yet i tried setting up manjaro to see what all the fuss was about with arch based systems. In less than ten minutes i understood the origin of all the krashes memes. I've been running debian stable (with backports) as my desktop for a couple of years now, I find that KDE is updated enough, and wayland is stable enough (on my hardware, of course, a 13 year old macbook and a 8 year old NUC).. honestly, as a simple user, i haven't appreciated any difference between X and wayland sessions, so i just login into wayland.

heavyset_go 1y ago
Manjaro is a notorious mess, don't let its poor implementation sour you on Arch based distros

pas 1y ago

> evolve rapidly ... um, okay, that's true, although in the last 10+ years it did not "rapidly" reach stability

samiv 1y ago

Software doesn't magically become "stale" by itself. It's deliberately broken by PEOPLE who DECIDE TO BREAK IT.