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This is the kind of rhetoric which seriously undermines the history of American philosophical thought. The things you mentioned are found in the history of ever

by nis0s 1y ago

This is the kind of rhetoric which seriously undermines the history of American philosophical thought. The things you mentioned are found in the history of every nation. It's important to keep track of what should be improved, while also acknowledging what worked well and why.

mike_d 1y ago
[flagged]
- tomrod 1y ago
  > Fascism has never in history been stopped by scholars. It is uncomfortable to directly acknowledge "what worked well." Your comment maps precisely to: we've had zero network intrusions, why are we paying these cybersecurity professionals? So much fascism and authoritarianism was blocked since WW2 because scholars called it out early. Guess what scholars called out in the US in 2016, but most politicians put party over country? "We scaled back our cybersecurity professionals and saved a ton of budget! On an unrelated note, do we have data breach insurance?" There is certainly room to punch fascists in the face when hostilities are hot. We can't start there and remain a tolerant society dealing with the paradox of tolerance. The first steps are shunning and ceasing support, isolating the infected into appropriately deprived states of resource loss, and not political violence. There is a great case study in Daryl Davis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis
  - mike_d 1y ago
    I agree that civil debate and cooler heads deterred and delayed fascism in many cases. I was referring specifically to when it has taken hold and needs to be stopped. An apt comparison would be instituting mandatory cybersecurity training for employees as a direct response to a breach. That is a great step to take post-cleanup but does basically nothing to address the issue at hand.
halico_chops 1y ago
[flagged]
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- dang 1y ago
  We've banned this account. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
tomrod 1y ago
> This is the kind of rhetoric which seriously undermines the history of American philosophical thought. Hard disagree. Ignoring it is what allows systemic injustice to persist -- why do we care, today, what Eugenicists in the early 1900s had to say? Jim Crow implementers and supporters? Daughters of the Confederacy? If the reality of history undermines your respect for American philosophical thought, then perhaps the American philosophical thought is not quite worthy of the pedestal it was placed on.
- nis0s 1y ago
  You’re right that it’s important to acknowledge the pain and suffering caused by bad policy and practices, and it’s important to examine what went wrong so we don’t repeat those mistakes. That said I think it’s important to separate good ideas from their troubled past and use them where they still apply. People are not perfect, but a good idea is good no matter where it comes from. Those good ideas shape culture and shape the destiny of nations. That’s what happened in America, and there’s a lot to be learned from the past. Unless the point is to undermine the recipe that made America into what it is today, then it doesn’t make sense to measure people who didn’t live in our time by our sensibilities, morality or ethics. We can learn their good stuff, and improve on what they didn’t do well.
  - tomrod 1y ago
    Maybe it would help to pluck out the few good ideas from the bad slop. What do you consider specifically unique in the American experiment that transcends the toxic swamp of suppression of freedoms America often engages in?
    - nis0s 1y ago
      > the toxic swamp of suppression of freedoms America often engage Seems extremist to take that view, especially when all nations have just as bloody or dark histories. But a lot of what shaped initial American thought were Enlightenment ideals, primarily the works of John Locke. So the foundation is solid enough, but is there more that can be done to produce effective implementations? Definitely. It’s important to note that there are good ideas everywhere, and no one culture or nation has had hegemony or monopoly on producing the best works over time. I personally also like the fact that the way the American revolutionaries thought shaped the progress of American science up to the 20th century. Here’s a recent lecture on this, but there’s no recording that I can find. https://www.sciencehistory.org/visit/events/americas-scientific-revolutionaries/ https://www.sciencehistory.org/visit/events/americas-scienti... https://www.usahistorytimeline.com/pages/the-impact-of-the-revolution-on-american-scientific-thought-37444f2e.php https://www.usahistorytimeline.com/pages/the-impact-of-the-r...
deadfoxygrandpa 1y ago
[flagged]
- nis0s 1y ago
  Civil wars have often occurred with war crimes (like killing non-combatants) with the purpose of performing ideology annihilation. At least one example is here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torre%C3%B3n_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torre%C3%B3n_massacre Creating distinct categories (ethnic cleansing or genocide etc.) of terrible things is an important exercise, but it can also dilute our overall understanding of human behaviors. The categories are useful for geological or historical analysis, but not for understanding baseline human behaviors.

by nis0s 1y ago

mike_d 1y ago

[flagged]

tomrod 1y ago
> Fascism has never in history been stopped by scholars. It is uncomfortable to directly acknowledge "what worked well." Your comment maps precisely to: we've had zero network intrusions, why are we paying these cybersecurity professionals? So much fascism and authoritarianism was blocked since WW2 because scholars called it out early. Guess what scholars called out in the US in 2016, but most politicians put party over country? "We scaled back our cybersecurity professionals and saved a ton of budget! On an unrelated note, do we have data breach insurance?" There is certainly room to punch fascists in the face when hostilities are hot. We can't start there and remain a tolerant society dealing with the paradox of tolerance. The first steps are shunning and ceasing support, isolating the infected into appropriately deprived states of resource loss, and not political violence. There is a great case study in Daryl Davis. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daryl_Davis
- mike_d 1y ago
  I agree that civil debate and cooler heads deterred and delayed fascism in many cases. I was referring specifically to when it has taken hold and needs to be stopped. An apt comparison would be instituting mandatory cybersecurity training for employees as a direct response to a breach. That is a great step to take post-cleanup but does basically nothing to address the issue at hand.

halico_chops 1y ago

[flagged]

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
dang 1y ago
We've banned this account. Please don't create accounts to break HN's rules with. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

tomrod 1y ago

> This is the kind of rhetoric which seriously undermines the history of American philosophical thought. Hard disagree. Ignoring it is what allows systemic injustice to persist -- why do we care, today, what Eugenicists in the early 1900s had to say? Jim Crow implementers and supporters? Daughters of the Confederacy? If the reality of history undermines your respect for American philosophical thought, then perhaps the American philosophical thought is not quite worthy of the pedestal it was placed on.

nis0s 1y ago
You’re right that it’s important to acknowledge the pain and suffering caused by bad policy and practices, and it’s important to examine what went wrong so we don’t repeat those mistakes. That said I think it’s important to separate good ideas from their troubled past and use them where they still apply. People are not perfect, but a good idea is good no matter where it comes from. Those good ideas shape culture and shape the destiny of nations. That’s what happened in America, and there’s a lot to be learned from the past. Unless the point is to undermine the recipe that made America into what it is today, then it doesn’t make sense to measure people who didn’t live in our time by our sensibilities, morality or ethics. We can learn their good stuff, and improve on what they didn’t do well.
- tomrod 1y ago
  Maybe it would help to pluck out the few good ideas from the bad slop. What do you consider specifically unique in the American experiment that transcends the toxic swamp of suppression of freedoms America often engages in?
  - nis0s 1y ago
    > the toxic swamp of suppression of freedoms America often engage Seems extremist to take that view, especially when all nations have just as bloody or dark histories. But a lot of what shaped initial American thought were Enlightenment ideals, primarily the works of John Locke. So the foundation is solid enough, but is there more that can be done to produce effective implementations? Definitely. It’s important to note that there are good ideas everywhere, and no one culture or nation has had hegemony or monopoly on producing the best works over time. I personally also like the fact that the way the American revolutionaries thought shaped the progress of American science up to the 20th century. Here’s a recent lecture on this, but there’s no recording that I can find. https://www.sciencehistory.org/visit/events/americas-scientific-revolutionaries/ https://www.sciencehistory.org/visit/events/americas-scienti... https://www.usahistorytimeline.com/pages/the-impact-of-the-revolution-on-american-scientific-thought-37444f2e.php https://www.usahistorytimeline.com/pages/the-impact-of-the-r...

deadfoxygrandpa 1y ago

[flagged]

nis0s 1y ago
Civil wars have often occurred with war crimes (like killing non-combatants) with the purpose of performing ideology annihilation. At least one example is here https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torre%C3%B3n_massacre https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torre%C3%B3n_massacre Creating distinct categories (ethnic cleansing or genocide etc.) of terrible things is an important exercise, but it can also dilute our overall understanding of human behaviors. The categories are useful for geological or historical analysis, but not for understanding baseline human behaviors.