12 ms·

Are all X11 bugs fixed?

o11c 1y ago
I haven't hit any for probably a decade now. Bugs in the window manager or shell (both shipped by KDE) are somewhat more common, but even if they are crashes, due to X11 being better-designed for isolated faults they are easily recovered-from without loss of session.
- jsheard 1y ago
  X11 not supporting modern display technologies is arguably a bug, and it's not likely to get resolved at this point (e.g. it can't do mixed DPIs, or VRR with multiple displays, or HDR in general).
  - o11c 1y ago
    I don't care about any of those things, since computers are about productivity for me. But I'm pretty sure at least half of them actually do work under X11, it's just that some UI libraries refuse to use it on the grounds of "X11 is outdated, I won't support features even though it does". (also, having played around with DPI stuff on Wayland, it's pretty broken there in practice)
    - whatevaa 1y ago
      Well and others do care, and no, bunch of stuff straight up doesn't work on Xorg, or is jank fest.
      - superkuh 1y ago
        Yep. I feel the same about all the various wayland compositors. Even 15 years on none of them have managed to implement accessibility support for existing linux applications. No screen readers support on any but GNOME's compositor and that doesn't work with existing applications; GNOME invented 2 new incompatible protocols that only their compositor works with (which doesn't work with existing applications). No HDR or high DPI is an annoyance. Not supporting accessibility is real deal breaker. Especially for commercial settings where things like Americans with Disability Act compliance matters. And even more for me with my retinas slowly tearing apart and losing my eyesight: the entire waylands ecosystem is extremely inconsistent and buggy.
    - TiredOfLife 1y ago
      > I don't care about any of those things, since computers are about productivity for me. All of those are productivity things
    - skeezyboy 1y ago
      >I don't care about any of those things, since computers are about productivity for me. I guarantee you spend more time "configuring" linux than actually being "productive" with it.
  - ryao 1y ago
    I suspect X11 can do mixed DPI and VRR with multiple displays if you do 1 display per xscreen, but nobody uses that configuration. I suspect HDR support could be added if someone were to retrofit it like how VR support was added, but no one really wants to work on that.
    - bitwize 1y ago
      No. HDR will never come to X11. This is because the X protocol defines a pixel as a CARD32, that is an unsigned 32-bit integer. So the highest depth you could theoretically go is R10G10B10, and forget about floating-point HDR. Fixing this would require rewriting the entire protocol. Which has effectively already been done; it's called Wayland. Perhaps people ought to listen to the Xorg devs when they say X11 is broken and obsolete, and you should be using Wayland instead. Every single one of them says this.
      - o11c 1y ago
        All sorts of things in X11 are "defined" as a particular thing in the base standard, then changed in protocol extensions. You really shouldn't be writing raw pixels anyway (and most people don't since breaks if your monitor is using 8-bit or 16-bit, for example).
        whatevaa 1y ago
        Amazing standard you got there.
        yxhuvud 1y ago
        To be fair, the same is very true with Wayland - you can't do much without extensions.
        skeezyboy 1y ago
        > You really shouldn't be writing raw pixels anyway (and most people don't since breaks if your monitor is using 8-bit or 16-bit, for example). what are you talking about?
  - bee_rider 1y ago
    I guess we’d have to see what the argument is. But, that looks more like a lack of features to me.
  - hulitu 1y ago
    > X11 not supporting modern display technologies is arguably a bug, X maintainers said it is a feature they do not want to implement. Because "we work on Wayland now, Wayland better".
    - E39M5S62 1y ago
      You're free to submit patches and features to X.org.
      - nairboon 1y ago
        Not really, that is OP's point. Xorg maintainers don't really want to enhance X11 and add new features, only critical bug fixes. That is one of the reason there are now X11 forks like Xlibre.
        ryao 1y ago
        That is a misconception. They added VR support to the Xorg server long after people started saying this. New features need to be well written and not break existing things, which is hard to do. The entire premise of Wayland was to make a clean state to avoid having to worry about existing things. However, they are not opposed to having new things added, as long as adding new things does not break existing things.
    - ryao 1y ago
      This guy does not work on Wayland: https://www.x.org/wiki/AlanCoopersmith/ https://www.x.org/wiki/AlanCoopersmith/ That said, he has not volunteered to implement HDR.
bitwize 1y ago
Ultimately it doesn't matter now, because Xorg is kind of in a state of "active abandonment", that is to say, the only maintenance being done is to ensure that no more bugs are being fixed aside from critical security issues on distros Red Hat still supports. In open source, you go where the developer energy is, and right now that's Wayland. If you're about to tell me that XLibre is a viable alternative, no you're not because it isn't.
- troyvit 1y ago
  I've been using KDE since before Wayland was a twinkle in RedHat's eye, so trust me when I say that Wayland has always come across as an afterthought from KDE. I'm not saying it was, but given all the issues KDE users have had with Wayland over the years it sure looked that way. If somebody I loved was having trouble with KDE the first thing I'd ask is if they had accidentally switched to Wayland (usually because of an upgrade). The majority of the time they'd check, sigh, and say yes. Switching back their problems would go away. Reading this thread makes me want to try KDE/Wayland again, so probably on my next install I'll give it another shot. If it's still crap I think it's time to switch off of KDE.
  - Novosell 1y ago
    I recently switched to hyprland but before that I was running a mixed HDR/SDR, mixed VRR/no VRR, mixed refresh rate setup with icc profiles applied under KDE wayland. No issues here tbh.
  - ryao 1y ago
    I have had minimal problems with KDE 6 and Wayland, but I dislike the idea that both cannot co-exist. There is no reason to force people to Wayland. There are applications that benefit from Wayland’s tighter security model while there are applications that benefit from X11’s looser security model. If I make an appliance and I want to remotely debug, X11 is great since I can use X11vnc. If I want to run malicious software in a sandbox environment, Wayland is great since it can be properly isolated. They both have their uses. X11 is far more mature too and thus has fewer problems. That said, I am probably preaching to the choir, as I think we are both moderates as far as the X11 vs Wayland debate is concerned.

o11c 1y ago

I haven't hit any for probably a decade now. Bugs in the window manager or shell (both shipped by KDE) are somewhat more common, but even if they are crashes, due to X11 being better-designed for isolated faults they are easily recovered-from without loss of session.

jsheard 1y ago
X11 not supporting modern display technologies is arguably a bug, and it's not likely to get resolved at this point (e.g. it can't do mixed DPIs, or VRR with multiple displays, or HDR in general).
- o11c 1y ago
  I don't care about any of those things, since computers are about productivity for me. But I'm pretty sure at least half of them actually do work under X11, it's just that some UI libraries refuse to use it on the grounds of "X11 is outdated, I won't support features even though it does". (also, having played around with DPI stuff on Wayland, it's pretty broken there in practice)
  - whatevaa 1y ago
    Well and others do care, and no, bunch of stuff straight up doesn't work on Xorg, or is jank fest.
    - superkuh 1y ago
      Yep. I feel the same about all the various wayland compositors. Even 15 years on none of them have managed to implement accessibility support for existing linux applications. No screen readers support on any but GNOME's compositor and that doesn't work with existing applications; GNOME invented 2 new incompatible protocols that only their compositor works with (which doesn't work with existing applications). No HDR or high DPI is an annoyance. Not supporting accessibility is real deal breaker. Especially for commercial settings where things like Americans with Disability Act compliance matters. And even more for me with my retinas slowly tearing apart and losing my eyesight: the entire waylands ecosystem is extremely inconsistent and buggy.
  - TiredOfLife 1y ago
    > I don't care about any of those things, since computers are about productivity for me. All of those are productivity things
  - skeezyboy 1y ago
    >I don't care about any of those things, since computers are about productivity for me. I guarantee you spend more time "configuring" linux than actually being "productive" with it.
- ryao 1y ago
  I suspect X11 can do mixed DPI and VRR with multiple displays if you do 1 display per xscreen, but nobody uses that configuration. I suspect HDR support could be added if someone were to retrofit it like how VR support was added, but no one really wants to work on that.
  - bitwize 1y ago
    No. HDR will never come to X11. This is because the X protocol defines a pixel as a CARD32, that is an unsigned 32-bit integer. So the highest depth you could theoretically go is R10G10B10, and forget about floating-point HDR. Fixing this would require rewriting the entire protocol. Which has effectively already been done; it's called Wayland. Perhaps people ought to listen to the Xorg devs when they say X11 is broken and obsolete, and you should be using Wayland instead. Every single one of them says this.
    - o11c 1y ago
      All sorts of things in X11 are "defined" as a particular thing in the base standard, then changed in protocol extensions. You really shouldn't be writing raw pixels anyway (and most people don't since breaks if your monitor is using 8-bit or 16-bit, for example).
      - whatevaa 1y ago
        Amazing standard you got there.
        yxhuvud 1y ago
        To be fair, the same is very true with Wayland - you can't do much without extensions.
      - skeezyboy 1y ago
        > You really shouldn't be writing raw pixels anyway (and most people don't since breaks if your monitor is using 8-bit or 16-bit, for example). what are you talking about?
- bee_rider 1y ago
  I guess we’d have to see what the argument is. But, that looks more like a lack of features to me.
- hulitu 1y ago
  > X11 not supporting modern display technologies is arguably a bug, X maintainers said it is a feature they do not want to implement. Because "we work on Wayland now, Wayland better".
  - E39M5S62 1y ago
    You're free to submit patches and features to X.org.
    - nairboon 1y ago
      Not really, that is OP's point. Xorg maintainers don't really want to enhance X11 and add new features, only critical bug fixes. That is one of the reason there are now X11 forks like Xlibre.
      - ryao 1y ago
        That is a misconception. They added VR support to the Xorg server long after people started saying this. New features need to be well written and not break existing things, which is hard to do. The entire premise of Wayland was to make a clean state to avoid having to worry about existing things. However, they are not opposed to having new things added, as long as adding new things does not break existing things.
  - ryao 1y ago
    This guy does not work on Wayland: https://www.x.org/wiki/AlanCoopersmith/ https://www.x.org/wiki/AlanCoopersmith/ That said, he has not volunteered to implement HDR.

bitwize 1y ago

Ultimately it doesn't matter now, because Xorg is kind of in a state of "active abandonment", that is to say, the only maintenance being done is to ensure that no more bugs are being fixed aside from critical security issues on distros Red Hat still supports. In open source, you go where the developer energy is, and right now that's Wayland. If you're about to tell me that XLibre is a viable alternative, no you're not because it isn't.

troyvit 1y ago
I've been using KDE since before Wayland was a twinkle in RedHat's eye, so trust me when I say that Wayland has always come across as an afterthought from KDE. I'm not saying it was, but given all the issues KDE users have had with Wayland over the years it sure looked that way. If somebody I loved was having trouble with KDE the first thing I'd ask is if they had accidentally switched to Wayland (usually because of an upgrade). The majority of the time they'd check, sigh, and say yes. Switching back their problems would go away. Reading this thread makes me want to try KDE/Wayland again, so probably on my next install I'll give it another shot. If it's still crap I think it's time to switch off of KDE.
- Novosell 1y ago
  I recently switched to hyprland but before that I was running a mixed HDR/SDR, mixed VRR/no VRR, mixed refresh rate setup with icc profiles applied under KDE wayland. No issues here tbh.
- ryao 1y ago
  I have had minimal problems with KDE 6 and Wayland, but I dislike the idea that both cannot co-exist. There is no reason to force people to Wayland. There are applications that benefit from Wayland’s tighter security model while there are applications that benefit from X11’s looser security model. If I make an appliance and I want to remotely debug, X11 is great since I can use X11vnc. If I want to run malicious software in a sandbox environment, Wayland is great since it can be properly isolated. They both have their uses. X11 is far more mature too and thus has fewer problems. That said, I am probably preaching to the choir, as I think we are both moderates as far as the X11 vs Wayland debate is concerned.