5 ms·

this has everything to do with guns. the more guns in society the more gun violence there is. is not rocket science

themafia 1y ago
In the USA: There are more suicides than murders every year. The ratio is typically 2:1. The "deaths due to gun violence" statistic includes suicides. It's not exactly that plain and simple either.
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  Access to guns makes suicide attempts much more likely to succeed. You're describing a related aspect of the same problem. https://www.kff.org/mental-health/do-states-with-easier-access-to-guns-have-more-suicide-deaths-by-firearm/ https://www.kff.org/mental-health/do-states-with-easier-acce... "Firearms are the most lethal method of suicide attempts, and about half of suicide attempts take place within 10 minutes of the current suicide thought, so having access to firearms is a suicide risk factor. The availability of firearms has been linked to suicides in a number of peer-reviewed studies. In one such study, researchers examined the association between firearm availability and suicide while also accounting for the potential confounding influence of state-level suicidal behaviors (as measured by suicide attempts). Researchers found that higher rates of gun ownership were associated with increased suicide by firearm deaths, but not with other types of suicide. Taking a look at suicide deaths starting from the date of a handgun purchase and comparing them to people who did not purchase handguns, another study found that people who purchased handguns were more likely to die from suicide by firearm than those who did not--with men 8 times more likely and women 35 times more likely compared to non-owners."
  - themafia 1y ago
    I would think addressing the reasons people commit suicide leads to a better society. I would think that simply removing a popular tool for them only hides a symptom of a broader problem. The other break in your statistic is people who own guns and commit suicide, and people who own guns and have a family member steal them to commit suicide. The later is far more common. Which suggests that part of the issue is unrestricted access to firearms by children in the home of a gun owning parent.
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      > I would think addressing the reasons people commit suicide leads to a better society. Sure. But one of those reasons is "I feel very bad and I have access to a gun". "The rate of non-firearm suicides is relatively stable across all groups, ranging from a low rate of 6.5 in states with the most firearm laws to a high of 6.9 in states with the lowest number of firearm laws. The absolute difference of 0.4 is statistically significant, but small. Non-firearm suicides remain relatively stable across groups, suggesting that other types of suicides are not more likely in areas where guns are harder to get."
      - mgh95 1y ago
        > Sure. But one of those reasons is "I feel very bad and I have access to a gun". This is perhaps one of the worst ways of looking at it. People kill themselves slowly by many means, including alcoholism, smoking, risky activities (reckless driving, etc.). These are grouped broadly under the term "Deaths of Despair" (see: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8221228/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8221228/). It may be more informative to look at other countries, such as Russia, Norway and Finland, which have incredibly high rates of alocholism leading to a high rate of deaths of despair. There are many ways to reliably kill yourself. Guns are just the quickest. A serious discussion on the topic cannot avoid this fact.
        ceejayoz 1y ago
        The faster the method, the less time there is to change your mind. An alcoholic can go to rehab. A smoker can take up vaping. The guy with a shotgun wound to the face… is in a spot of bother.
        mgh95 1y ago
        Yes but addressing it as far as "can go to rehab" misses the point: deaths from chronic fatty liver and its complications or lung cancer are dramatically elevated in these countries. It is quite literally "too late". The problem needs to be addressed much earlier.
  - throwmeaway222 1y ago
    It has been stated before, but perhaps we should only allow older people to have guns, probably 40ish. Of course that filters out all but one mass murders - Las Vegas (at least from brain memory).
  - 15155 1y ago
    Why should this negate my rights?
    - ceejayoz 1y ago
      Every right we have is balanced against the rights of others. The First Amendment doesn’t mean you can found a murder cult. The debate is largely over where to draw the lines. Virtually everyone is fine with limiting access to certain weapons, for example.
- EricDeb 1y ago
  guns are a very efficient tool for murder or suicide. They absolutely will increase the number of deaths due to their effectiveness. Whether that's worth the societal price is up to the people.
- greycol 1y ago
  Sure but the people asking to track gun deaths properly are rebuffed by the people who want to keep guns, so even the guys who want to keep guns infer better stats will make them look worse.
indecisive_user 1y ago
Canada and Finland both have a lot of civilian firearms per capita but not a lot of gun violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...
- Braxton1980 1y ago
  It could be a combination of guns and something else. While I hate this type of argument, what else explains the high rate of gun violence in the US?
  - eldaisfish 1y ago
    easy access to guns plus a culture glorifying access to guns.
  - pb7 1y ago
    [flagged]
- codemac 1y ago
  ... a lot isn't even close though. The US is at 120.5 guns per 100 civilians, and Canada is at 34.5 I think being ~4x the ratio of guns per capita, (and 30x the total!) has to do something, right?
- mvdtnz 1y ago
  So we can conclude that proliferation of guns are a necessary but not sufficient condition for excessive gun violence. Remove the necessary condition, remove the violence.
- carlosjobim 1y ago
  According to that Wikipedia link there are 1 million registered firearms in the USA and 400 million unregistered firearms. Could somebody explain these numbers, since they seem very odd?
  - 1y ago
dogweather 1y ago
Australia has a lot of violence as well - it's simply not gun violence. I believe your conclusion is incorrect.
- hitarpetar 1y ago
  how does the Australian murder rate compare to American?
- ceejayoz 1y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... Australia: 0.854/100k USA: 5.763/100k i.e. about 1/7th the amount of intentional homicides.

In the USA: There are more suicides than murders every year. The ratio is typically 2:1. The "deaths due to gun violence" statistic includes suicides. It's not exactly that plain and simple either.

ceejayoz 1y ago
Access to guns makes suicide attempts much more likely to succeed. You're describing a related aspect of the same problem. https://www.kff.org/mental-health/do-states-with-easier-access-to-guns-have-more-suicide-deaths-by-firearm/ https://www.kff.org/mental-health/do-states-with-easier-acce... "Firearms are the most lethal method of suicide attempts, and about half of suicide attempts take place within 10 minutes of the current suicide thought, so having access to firearms is a suicide risk factor. The availability of firearms has been linked to suicides in a number of peer-reviewed studies. In one such study, researchers examined the association between firearm availability and suicide while also accounting for the potential confounding influence of state-level suicidal behaviors (as measured by suicide attempts). Researchers found that higher rates of gun ownership were associated with increased suicide by firearm deaths, but not with other types of suicide. Taking a look at suicide deaths starting from the date of a handgun purchase and comparing them to people who did not purchase handguns, another study found that people who purchased handguns were more likely to die from suicide by firearm than those who did not--with men 8 times more likely and women 35 times more likely compared to non-owners."
- themafia 1y ago
  I would think addressing the reasons people commit suicide leads to a better society. I would think that simply removing a popular tool for them only hides a symptom of a broader problem. The other break in your statistic is people who own guns and commit suicide, and people who own guns and have a family member steal them to commit suicide. The later is far more common. Which suggests that part of the issue is unrestricted access to firearms by children in the home of a gun owning parent.
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    > I would think addressing the reasons people commit suicide leads to a better society. Sure. But one of those reasons is "I feel very bad and I have access to a gun". "The rate of non-firearm suicides is relatively stable across all groups, ranging from a low rate of 6.5 in states with the most firearm laws to a high of 6.9 in states with the lowest number of firearm laws. The absolute difference of 0.4 is statistically significant, but small. Non-firearm suicides remain relatively stable across groups, suggesting that other types of suicides are not more likely in areas where guns are harder to get."
    - mgh95 1y ago
      > Sure. But one of those reasons is "I feel very bad and I have access to a gun". This is perhaps one of the worst ways of looking at it. People kill themselves slowly by many means, including alcoholism, smoking, risky activities (reckless driving, etc.). These are grouped broadly under the term "Deaths of Despair" (see: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8221228/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8221228/). It may be more informative to look at other countries, such as Russia, Norway and Finland, which have incredibly high rates of alocholism leading to a high rate of deaths of despair. There are many ways to reliably kill yourself. Guns are just the quickest. A serious discussion on the topic cannot avoid this fact.
      - ceejayoz 1y ago
        The faster the method, the less time there is to change your mind. An alcoholic can go to rehab. A smoker can take up vaping. The guy with a shotgun wound to the face… is in a spot of bother.
        mgh95 1y ago
        Yes but addressing it as far as "can go to rehab" misses the point: deaths from chronic fatty liver and its complications or lung cancer are dramatically elevated in these countries. It is quite literally "too late". The problem needs to be addressed much earlier.
- throwmeaway222 1y ago
  It has been stated before, but perhaps we should only allow older people to have guns, probably 40ish. Of course that filters out all but one mass murders - Las Vegas (at least from brain memory).
- 15155 1y ago
  Why should this negate my rights?
  - ceejayoz 1y ago
    Every right we have is balanced against the rights of others. The First Amendment doesn’t mean you can found a murder cult. The debate is largely over where to draw the lines. Virtually everyone is fine with limiting access to certain weapons, for example.
EricDeb 1y ago
guns are a very efficient tool for murder or suicide. They absolutely will increase the number of deaths due to their effectiveness. Whether that's worth the societal price is up to the people.
greycol 1y ago
Sure but the people asking to track gun deaths properly are rebuffed by the people who want to keep guns, so even the guys who want to keep guns infer better stats will make them look worse.

indecisive_user 1y ago

Canada and Finland both have a lot of civilian firearms per capita but not a lot of gun violence https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g...

Braxton1980 1y ago
It could be a combination of guns and something else. While I hate this type of argument, what else explains the high rate of gun violence in the US?
- eldaisfish 1y ago
  easy access to guns plus a culture glorifying access to guns.
- pb7 1y ago
  [flagged]
codemac 1y ago
... a lot isn't even close though. The US is at 120.5 guns per 100 civilians, and Canada is at 34.5 I think being ~4x the ratio of guns per capita, (and 30x the total!) has to do something, right?
mvdtnz 1y ago
So we can conclude that proliferation of guns are a necessary but not sufficient condition for excessive gun violence. Remove the necessary condition, remove the violence.
carlosjobim 1y ago
According to that Wikipedia link there are 1 million registered firearms in the USA and 400 million unregistered firearms. Could somebody explain these numbers, since they seem very odd?
- 1y ago

dogweather 1y ago

Australia has a lot of violence as well - it's simply not gun violence. I believe your conclusion is incorrect.

hitarpetar 1y ago
how does the Australian murder rate compare to American?
ceejayoz 1y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intention... Australia: 0.854/100k USA: 5.763/100k i.e. about 1/7th the amount of intentional homicides.