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My favourite thing about living in the Netherlands is that kids have freedom. They can bike to school, their friends’ houses, sports, town etc and parents aren’

My favourite thing about living in the Netherlands is that kids have freedom. They can bike to school, their friends’ houses, sports, town etc and parents aren’t their taxi. Growing up in suburban California I was basically in an outdoor prison until I could drive.

mettamage 1y ago
> Growing up in suburban California I was basically in an outdoor prison until I could drive. Having grown up in the Netherlands and having a decision to make where we want our kids to grow up (US spouse), this feels painful to read. I suppose the SWE salaries aren't worth it. Also this is one of the best towns to cycle in the Netherlands: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-TuGAHR78w&ab_channel=NotJustBikes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-TuGAHR78w&ab_channel=NotJu...
- CalRobert 1y ago
  Agreed, last summer we contemplated moving back to CA for work but wouldn’t want that for our kids. And hello from Houten :-). If you’re here and want to talk bikes maybe we could have a coffee some time!
  - jonasdegendt 1y ago
    Hacker News bike meet when? We'll have to get jerseys! :^)
    - CalRobert 1y ago
      Sounds good! I’m in Houten :-)
- rollcat 1y ago
  Shout out to @NotJustBikes in general. Infrastructure should be built for humans first. This benefits cars as well: more accessible for walking / cycling / public transport = less congested for when you do need a car.
- vanviegen 1y ago
  It seems like those comfy US coastal salaries usually buy you either: - A largish house in the subs, and a nice car that you'll be seeing a lot of, unfortunately. - A tiny house closer to work. While European SWE salaries are significantly lower, they can generally buy you a decent house close to work.
  - CalRobert 1y ago
    For a period in my 20’s when I wasn’t well paid I lived in some nice places car free (San Luis Obispo, Santa Monica, Berkeley) but this was when rent was cheap and I didn’t have a family. Even in Europe it’s hard to find a decent affordable home where you can raise a couple kids in places you can live without a car.
  - rrrobert 1y ago
    In which European city is this true? I can't think of any. Certainly not London/Paris/Amsterdam/Munich/Warsaw. For comparison, Amsterdam's price per square meter for apartments is some 30% higher than in Seattle and my big tech company that offers total compensation around $500k/yr for L5 in Seattle pays low $200s (converted to USD) in Amsterdam. The only colleagues I know who live in a single family home within reasonable biking distance are late career (L6/L7) American expats. In any European city, that has a decent tech job market, owning a house (even a small one by American standards) in walking/biking distance of the office means you're rich rich.
  - drstewart 1y ago
    Really interesting, can you share the salaries, cost, and size of three high-paying jobs in: NYC, London, and Paris? Curious about the big houses you're getting for cheap in London and Paris!
    - CalRobert 1y ago
      They didn’t say that?
- eigenspace 1y ago
  Money is great for a lot of things, but money alone would definitely not be enough to get me to live in the USA, especially now that I'm preparing to have kids.
- silvestrov 1y ago
  Another problem is that they very seldom make walking pathways between cul de sacs. These 2 houses are 100 meters from each other but you have to walk 1700 meters and most of the distance is without any sidewalk, only "Odell Cir" has it. The small amount of sidewalk is so narrow and close to the cars that it is hardly a sidewalk. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/28.8760292,-81.9827997/28.8751384,-81.9832486/@28.8742333,-81.981473,18.16z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e2 https://www.google.com/maps/dir/28.8760292,-81.9827997/28.87... Edit: compare to this: longer distance for cars but there is a direct walking path: https://www.google.dk/maps/dir/55.6714604,12.3530984/55.6716936,12.3541956/@55.671,12.3508806,16.78z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0 https://www.google.dk/maps/dir/55.6714604,12.3530984/55.6716...
- cholantesh 1y ago
  Hah, I had a feeling that was a NJB video. It is generally surreal to me that even smaller settlements in Europe have more, shall we say, evolvability than North American ones, and (at least in some cases owing to their antiquity) prioritize the needs of pedestrians.
  - CalRobert 1y ago
    Interestingly the town in the video is actually quite new- built in the eighties.
    - cholantesh 1y ago
      Yeah I went to an informal town hall recently at my library about bike commuting in our city. An older gent was pretty adamant that our suburb has pretty much always been car-dependent and couldn't ever be anything else, and didn't care much for my reply that many European cities were on track to be the same until the 70s.
  - panick21_ 1y ago
    American cities, almost all were also built before the car. At least the city centers. Both US and European cities grew after WW2. The US just radically and systematically destroyed its own cities, Europe did its fair share of that, but simply not as bad. I think what saved Europe is that they were behind the US in investment, and when they finally wanted to adopt those US polices, people had already figured out how shit it was, and in many cities the worst urban highways were prevented. In the US, very few cities survived and very few highways were stopped. European cities are do not have more evolvability, in fact, large US roads actually means you have more op. Its more a matter of the US refusing to evolve. Its political far more then an aspect of the build environment.
    - ascagnel_ 1y ago
      The problem for America is that moneyed interests (big car manufacturers) would frequently sabotage or otherwise salt the earth for public transportation projects. One immediate one off the top of my head is the Long Island Expressway: when it was constructed, it was built in mostly-undeveloped or under-developed land, and space could have been reserved for a rail line running parallel to the highway. Another is less obvious: the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail line in northern NJ was constructed in the late 90s and early 00s, including a disused rail right-of-way that went from the southern part of Jersey City to the southern tip of Bayonne, near the Bayonne Bridge that connects to Staten Island (a notorious transit desert). While there were plans to extend the light rail line when the bridge was raised in the late 00s, it was decided against, even though it would've been a boon to all three cities/boroughs.
- smusamashah 1y ago
  This reminds of an SUV killing a 7 year old and parents were jailed for 'manslaughter' instead of the driver (North Carolina, US). https://abcnews.go.com/US/parents-charged-manslaughter-boy-struck-car-gastonia-north-carolina/story?id=122500748 https://abcnews.go.com/US/parents-charged-manslaughter-boy-s...
Zigurd 1y ago
I was fortunate to raise my kids in an exurb that's popular for scenic and uncongested roads. We get a lot of road bikers on the weekends. That means it's relatively safe for kids to ride their bikes all over town. This gave my kids a lot of independence at a younger age than most.
freetime2 1y ago
> Growing up in suburban California I was basically in an outdoor prison until I could drive. Just as a counter point, I grew up in suburban Massachusetts and this wasn't the case for me. My friends and I rode all over town on our bikes. Bike lanes weren't a thing back then at all, and this was in the 90s when violent crime was at its peak in the US. We just tried to stick to streets with less traffic, rode on sidewalks where available, and took alternate routes through the woods, the cemetery, private property, etc. to avoid busy areas. This is anecdotal, of course, but no kid from my town ever got hit by a car when I was growing up (one kid did die chasing a ball into the street, though). I'm all for building bike lanes and public transport. And also not all suburban areas are equal - I've definitely seen areas of the US where I would not feel safe riding a bike even as an adult. But I think whatever is keeping kids confined to their homes is just as much a cultural change as it is a lack of infrastructure.
- CalRobert 1y ago
  I think New England towns are better, especially back when we sold cars and not giant SUVs and trucks.
- ahoy 1y ago
  New england's suburbs & small towns are the outlier in the US. I grew up in the south and my experience exactly mirrors that of the CA resident you're responding to. No amount of cultural change is going to make suburban charlotte a good place for 8 year olds to bike alone.
- pixxel 1y ago
  [dead]
- efavdb 1y ago
  Same in Midwest

mettamage 1y ago

> Growing up in suburban California I was basically in an outdoor prison until I could drive. Having grown up in the Netherlands and having a decision to make where we want our kids to grow up (US spouse), this feels painful to read. I suppose the SWE salaries aren't worth it. Also this is one of the best towns to cycle in the Netherlands: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-TuGAHR78w&ab_channel=NotJustBikes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r-TuGAHR78w&ab_channel=NotJu...

CalRobert 1y ago
Agreed, last summer we contemplated moving back to CA for work but wouldn’t want that for our kids. And hello from Houten :-). If you’re here and want to talk bikes maybe we could have a coffee some time!
- jonasdegendt 1y ago
  Hacker News bike meet when? We'll have to get jerseys! :^)
  - CalRobert 1y ago
    Sounds good! I’m in Houten :-)
rollcat 1y ago
Shout out to @NotJustBikes in general. Infrastructure should be built for humans first. This benefits cars as well: more accessible for walking / cycling / public transport = less congested for when you do need a car.
vanviegen 1y ago
It seems like those comfy US coastal salaries usually buy you either: - A largish house in the subs, and a nice car that you'll be seeing a lot of, unfortunately. - A tiny house closer to work. While European SWE salaries are significantly lower, they can generally buy you a decent house close to work.
- CalRobert 1y ago
  For a period in my 20’s when I wasn’t well paid I lived in some nice places car free (San Luis Obispo, Santa Monica, Berkeley) but this was when rent was cheap and I didn’t have a family. Even in Europe it’s hard to find a decent affordable home where you can raise a couple kids in places you can live without a car.
- rrrobert 1y ago
  In which European city is this true? I can't think of any. Certainly not London/Paris/Amsterdam/Munich/Warsaw. For comparison, Amsterdam's price per square meter for apartments is some 30% higher than in Seattle and my big tech company that offers total compensation around $500k/yr for L5 in Seattle pays low $200s (converted to USD) in Amsterdam. The only colleagues I know who live in a single family home within reasonable biking distance are late career (L6/L7) American expats. In any European city, that has a decent tech job market, owning a house (even a small one by American standards) in walking/biking distance of the office means you're rich rich.
- drstewart 1y ago
  Really interesting, can you share the salaries, cost, and size of three high-paying jobs in: NYC, London, and Paris? Curious about the big houses you're getting for cheap in London and Paris!
  - CalRobert 1y ago
    They didn’t say that?
eigenspace 1y ago
Money is great for a lot of things, but money alone would definitely not be enough to get me to live in the USA, especially now that I'm preparing to have kids.
silvestrov 1y ago
Another problem is that they very seldom make walking pathways between cul de sacs. These 2 houses are 100 meters from each other but you have to walk 1700 meters and most of the distance is without any sidewalk, only "Odell Cir" has it. The small amount of sidewalk is so narrow and close to the cars that it is hardly a sidewalk. https://www.google.com/maps/dir/28.8760292,-81.9827997/28.8751384,-81.9832486/@28.8742333,-81.981473,18.16z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e2 https://www.google.com/maps/dir/28.8760292,-81.9827997/28.87... Edit: compare to this: longer distance for cars but there is a direct walking path: https://www.google.dk/maps/dir/55.6714604,12.3530984/55.6716936,12.3541956/@55.671,12.3508806,16.78z/data=!4m2!4m1!3e0 https://www.google.dk/maps/dir/55.6714604,12.3530984/55.6716...
cholantesh 1y ago
Hah, I had a feeling that was a NJB video. It is generally surreal to me that even smaller settlements in Europe have more, shall we say, evolvability than North American ones, and (at least in some cases owing to their antiquity) prioritize the needs of pedestrians.
- CalRobert 1y ago
  Interestingly the town in the video is actually quite new- built in the eighties.
  - cholantesh 1y ago
    Yeah I went to an informal town hall recently at my library about bike commuting in our city. An older gent was pretty adamant that our suburb has pretty much always been car-dependent and couldn't ever be anything else, and didn't care much for my reply that many European cities were on track to be the same until the 70s.
- panick21_ 1y ago
  American cities, almost all were also built before the car. At least the city centers. Both US and European cities grew after WW2. The US just radically and systematically destroyed its own cities, Europe did its fair share of that, but simply not as bad. I think what saved Europe is that they were behind the US in investment, and when they finally wanted to adopt those US polices, people had already figured out how shit it was, and in many cities the worst urban highways were prevented. In the US, very few cities survived and very few highways were stopped. European cities are do not have more evolvability, in fact, large US roads actually means you have more op. Its more a matter of the US refusing to evolve. Its political far more then an aspect of the build environment.
  - ascagnel_ 1y ago
    The problem for America is that moneyed interests (big car manufacturers) would frequently sabotage or otherwise salt the earth for public transportation projects. One immediate one off the top of my head is the Long Island Expressway: when it was constructed, it was built in mostly-undeveloped or under-developed land, and space could have been reserved for a rail line running parallel to the highway. Another is less obvious: the Hudson-Bergen Light Rail line in northern NJ was constructed in the late 90s and early 00s, including a disused rail right-of-way that went from the southern part of Jersey City to the southern tip of Bayonne, near the Bayonne Bridge that connects to Staten Island (a notorious transit desert). While there were plans to extend the light rail line when the bridge was raised in the late 00s, it was decided against, even though it would've been a boon to all three cities/boroughs.
smusamashah 1y ago
This reminds of an SUV killing a 7 year old and parents were jailed for 'manslaughter' instead of the driver (North Carolina, US). https://abcnews.go.com/US/parents-charged-manslaughter-boy-struck-car-gastonia-north-carolina/story?id=122500748 https://abcnews.go.com/US/parents-charged-manslaughter-boy-s...

Zigurd 1y ago

I was fortunate to raise my kids in an exurb that's popular for scenic and uncongested roads. We get a lot of road bikers on the weekends. That means it's relatively safe for kids to ride their bikes all over town. This gave my kids a lot of independence at a younger age than most.

freetime2 1y ago

> Growing up in suburban California I was basically in an outdoor prison until I could drive. Just as a counter point, I grew up in suburban Massachusetts and this wasn't the case for me. My friends and I rode all over town on our bikes. Bike lanes weren't a thing back then at all, and this was in the 90s when violent crime was at its peak in the US. We just tried to stick to streets with less traffic, rode on sidewalks where available, and took alternate routes through the woods, the cemetery, private property, etc. to avoid busy areas. This is anecdotal, of course, but no kid from my town ever got hit by a car when I was growing up (one kid did die chasing a ball into the street, though). I'm all for building bike lanes and public transport. And also not all suburban areas are equal - I've definitely seen areas of the US where I would not feel safe riding a bike even as an adult. But I think whatever is keeping kids confined to their homes is just as much a cultural change as it is a lack of infrastructure.

CalRobert 1y ago
I think New England towns are better, especially back when we sold cars and not giant SUVs and trucks.
ahoy 1y ago
New england's suburbs & small towns are the outlier in the US. I grew up in the south and my experience exactly mirrors that of the CA resident you're responding to. No amount of cultural change is going to make suburban charlotte a good place for 8 year olds to bike alone.
pixxel 1y ago
[dead]
efavdb 1y ago
Same in Midwest