3 ms·

Not just education but overall intellectualism. It’s a purely cultural issue that can be observed by looking at demographics.

ars 1y ago
> intellectualism It's interesting to blame anti-intellectualism because Republicans are usually labeled with that. But simultaneously it's Democrats that will dumb down classes to make sure even the worst performing student will pass. And this is also anti-intellectualism, but of a different sort. The combination is failing our students, doesn't matter the political orientation. I'm involved in education, I see this every day - I spoke with someone taking a class on how to reach students, and due to no-child-left-behind, this is actually a class on how racism holds back black students and what to do about it (answer: Make simpler, easier classes). It's completely silent on any other type of student.
- doritosfan84 1y ago
  A Republican promoted and implemented No Child Left Behind though? Maybe I’m misunderstanding your point.
  - ars 1y ago
    My point is that Democrats are implementing it by making classes worse for everyone. Republican states aren't doing that. It's not the concept of No Child Left Behind that is bad, it's the implementation (and it's used as a reason to worsen classes).
    - Yossarrian22 1y ago
      Those states are declining too
  - BirAdam 1y ago
    That republican had stated during his campaign that he wanted to end the department of education…
    - bigstrat2003 1y ago
      Which I agree we should do, carefully. The federal government has no constitutional authorization to create educational standards for the country. Therefore, let those standards be set by the states.
      - aprilthird2021 1y ago
        What country with enviable educational results operates this way? Genuinely curious
        jl6 1y ago
        Not sure where the UK stands on enviable results, but education is a devolved matter where the constituent countries can make independent decisions as opposed to there being a central government department that makes all decisions nationally.
  - monkeyelite 1y ago
    Ok but which side supports it. Do you agree it’s a bad policy?
- JKCalhoun 1y ago
  > Democrats that will dumb down classes to make sure even the worst performing student will pass News to me.
  - dlivingston 1y ago
    See San Francisco's failed de-tracking experiment as Exhibit A.
  - Aurornis 1y ago
    Unfortunately it’s a real thing among leftists (not necessarily Democrats in general). The belief is that any advanced classes increase the achievement gap. People who subscribe to this also believe that advanced placement testing is discrimination and must be eliminated. They want equity of outcome, so reducing the curriculum to a single class at a single level that everyone the same age takes is their preference. It has been implemented in several places with predictable backlash.
    - tracker1 1y ago
      The funny, and somewhat ironic thing is from my own understanding of Communist nations is they don't even try to do this... USSR put in a fair amount of effort to promote excellence and achievement for students into more specialized programs earlier than later. With an overall increased divide between the best and worst performing. I find it hard to fathom that there are those in the US that work so hard to hold back advancement from those most capable.
- apical_dendrite 1y ago
  What you're describing is a fad that has subsided a bit over the last few years. Cambridge MA stopped teaching 8th grade algebra because they didn't like the racial disparity between students in advanced vs non-advanced math. There was a significant backlash from parents, and now they're bringing back 8th grade algebra. The debate now seems to be much more about how to offer more advanced math than whether to offer it at all. A similar dynamic seems to be playing out in other towns as well.
  - yellowpencil 1y ago
    A positive change for sure but what about the kids who were stunted developmentally during that time? In a nearby elementary school they are now touting teaching kids “AI literacy”. At an age where they don’t even have enough of a world view to understand anything related to it. Such an asinine idea, and of course it will be at the expense of something non-trendy. It seems like public education suffers from so much “idea cascade” now and jumps from one fad to the next. Educational paths are more and more left to chance than organized thought.
- PartiallyTyped 1y ago
  I don’t understand why this became about politics, but I will bite. Republicans want to dismantle department of education, have cut funding for education, food stamps, free meals, etc. they are by definition against education for the outgroup and “the poors”. So I think that label is apt. On the other hand, Dem leadership is quite racist and has a saviour complex. They identified the right issue — children from impoverished areas that don’t see a future for themselves through education are underperforming — but instead of treating the problem they push stuff like no child left behind. In their defence though, republicans simply don’t allow any legislation that would improve education to go forward, mainly because they benefit from it.
  - bluGill 1y ago
    > Republicans want to dismantle department of education, have cut funding for education, food stamps, free meals, etc. > they are by definition against education for the outgroup and “the poors” The second does not follow from the first in anyway. You can be against federal education and strongly for education. Just because you think a federal department of education is needed for good education doesn't mean it everyone thinks like you or that people who think differently automatically do not value the things you think having a federal department of education would help.
    - PartiallyTyped 1y ago
      Grand, let’s observe state-wide evidence. Red states overwhelmingly occupy the bottom end of leaderboards by all accounts of education except the number of people believing in fairytales about angels.
      - bluGill 1y ago
        The bottom end is also places where there are a lot more Hispanic people who for whatever reason tend do do bad in education. Which is to say there are so many confounders that your observation isn't helpful to the debate.
paulcole 1y ago
Tell us more about the cultural issue that can be observed by looking at demographics. What specifically stands out to you?
- PartiallyTyped 1y ago
  Isn’t it obvious? Children of immigrants do way better. Children of Asian households do way better than other ethnicities, and children in impoverished areas do a lot worse. All of this is cultural and anyone who thought I implied race — which looks like you did — is a moron and a racist. IMHO this whole thing is environmental.
  - paulcole 1y ago
    This should be flagged for being a personal insult. I asked a question for details you failed to provide in your first comment. > All of this is cultural and anyone who thought I implied race — which looks like you did There’s no way this can be true because I never think before I comment here.
- chithanh 1y ago
  One is the observation that first- and second-generation black immigrants have much higher share of college admissions than their share of the black population, despite similar socio-economic status to African Americans with longer family history in the US. https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2017/10/09/cornell-students-revive-debate-whom-colleges-should-count-black https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2017/10/09...

ars 1y ago

> intellectualism It's interesting to blame anti-intellectualism because Republicans are usually labeled with that. But simultaneously it's Democrats that will dumb down classes to make sure even the worst performing student will pass. And this is also anti-intellectualism, but of a different sort. The combination is failing our students, doesn't matter the political orientation. I'm involved in education, I see this every day - I spoke with someone taking a class on how to reach students, and due to no-child-left-behind, this is actually a class on how racism holds back black students and what to do about it (answer: Make simpler, easier classes). It's completely silent on any other type of student.

doritosfan84 1y ago
A Republican promoted and implemented No Child Left Behind though? Maybe I’m misunderstanding your point.
- ars 1y ago
  My point is that Democrats are implementing it by making classes worse for everyone. Republican states aren't doing that. It's not the concept of No Child Left Behind that is bad, it's the implementation (and it's used as a reason to worsen classes).
  - Yossarrian22 1y ago
    Those states are declining too
- BirAdam 1y ago
  That republican had stated during his campaign that he wanted to end the department of education…
  - bigstrat2003 1y ago
    Which I agree we should do, carefully. The federal government has no constitutional authorization to create educational standards for the country. Therefore, let those standards be set by the states.
    - aprilthird2021 1y ago
      What country with enviable educational results operates this way? Genuinely curious
      - jl6 1y ago
        Not sure where the UK stands on enviable results, but education is a devolved matter where the constituent countries can make independent decisions as opposed to there being a central government department that makes all decisions nationally.
- monkeyelite 1y ago
  Ok but which side supports it. Do you agree it’s a bad policy?
JKCalhoun 1y ago
> Democrats that will dumb down classes to make sure even the worst performing student will pass News to me.
- dlivingston 1y ago
  See San Francisco's failed de-tracking experiment as Exhibit A.
- Aurornis 1y ago
  Unfortunately it’s a real thing among leftists (not necessarily Democrats in general). The belief is that any advanced classes increase the achievement gap. People who subscribe to this also believe that advanced placement testing is discrimination and must be eliminated. They want equity of outcome, so reducing the curriculum to a single class at a single level that everyone the same age takes is their preference. It has been implemented in several places with predictable backlash.
  - tracker1 1y ago
    The funny, and somewhat ironic thing is from my own understanding of Communist nations is they don't even try to do this... USSR put in a fair amount of effort to promote excellence and achievement for students into more specialized programs earlier than later. With an overall increased divide between the best and worst performing. I find it hard to fathom that there are those in the US that work so hard to hold back advancement from those most capable.
apical_dendrite 1y ago
What you're describing is a fad that has subsided a bit over the last few years. Cambridge MA stopped teaching 8th grade algebra because they didn't like the racial disparity between students in advanced vs non-advanced math. There was a significant backlash from parents, and now they're bringing back 8th grade algebra. The debate now seems to be much more about how to offer more advanced math than whether to offer it at all. A similar dynamic seems to be playing out in other towns as well.
- yellowpencil 1y ago
  A positive change for sure but what about the kids who were stunted developmentally during that time? In a nearby elementary school they are now touting teaching kids “AI literacy”. At an age where they don’t even have enough of a world view to understand anything related to it. Such an asinine idea, and of course it will be at the expense of something non-trendy. It seems like public education suffers from so much “idea cascade” now and jumps from one fad to the next. Educational paths are more and more left to chance than organized thought.
PartiallyTyped 1y ago
I don’t understand why this became about politics, but I will bite. Republicans want to dismantle department of education, have cut funding for education, food stamps, free meals, etc. they are by definition against education for the outgroup and “the poors”. So I think that label is apt. On the other hand, Dem leadership is quite racist and has a saviour complex. They identified the right issue — children from impoverished areas that don’t see a future for themselves through education are underperforming — but instead of treating the problem they push stuff like no child left behind. In their defence though, republicans simply don’t allow any legislation that would improve education to go forward, mainly because they benefit from it.
- bluGill 1y ago
  > Republicans want to dismantle department of education, have cut funding for education, food stamps, free meals, etc. > they are by definition against education for the outgroup and “the poors” The second does not follow from the first in anyway. You can be against federal education and strongly for education. Just because you think a federal department of education is needed for good education doesn't mean it everyone thinks like you or that people who think differently automatically do not value the things you think having a federal department of education would help.
  - PartiallyTyped 1y ago
    Grand, let’s observe state-wide evidence. Red states overwhelmingly occupy the bottom end of leaderboards by all accounts of education except the number of people believing in fairytales about angels.
    - bluGill 1y ago
      The bottom end is also places where there are a lot more Hispanic people who for whatever reason tend do do bad in education. Which is to say there are so many confounders that your observation isn't helpful to the debate.

paulcole 1y ago

Tell us more about the cultural issue that can be observed by looking at demographics. What specifically stands out to you?

PartiallyTyped 1y ago
Isn’t it obvious? Children of immigrants do way better. Children of Asian households do way better than other ethnicities, and children in impoverished areas do a lot worse. All of this is cultural and anyone who thought I implied race — which looks like you did — is a moron and a racist. IMHO this whole thing is environmental.
- paulcole 1y ago
  This should be flagged for being a personal insult. I asked a question for details you failed to provide in your first comment. > All of this is cultural and anyone who thought I implied race — which looks like you did There’s no way this can be true because I never think before I comment here.
chithanh 1y ago
One is the observation that first- and second-generation black immigrants have much higher share of college admissions than their share of the black population, despite similar socio-economic status to African Americans with longer family history in the US. https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2017/10/09/cornell-students-revive-debate-whom-colleges-should-count-black https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2017/10/09...