5 ms·

This is the opposite of fun computing. This is commercial computing who's only use case it making sure that people can send/receive money through their computer

This is the opposite of fun computing. This is commercial computing who's only use case it making sure that people can send/receive money through their computers securely. I love being able to peek/poke inside and look at my processes ram, or patch the memory of an executable. All this sounds pretty impossible on Apple's locked down systems. They're not so much general purpose computers anymore as they are locked down bank terminals.

user3939382 1y ago
Bingo. None of this is for users. Apple somehow managed to put on a marketing mask of user respect when they’re at least as user abusive as anyone else.
- astrange 1y ago
  https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jan/17/two-female-activists-in-bahrain-and-jordan-hacked-with-nso-spyware https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jan/17/two-female-acti...
  - bigyabai 1y ago
    It's detestable how Apple handled the aftermath of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FORCEDENTRY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FORCEDENTRY In November 2021, Apple Inc. filed a complaint against NSO Group and its parent company Q Cyber Technologies in the United States District Court for the Northern District of California in relation to FORCEDENTRY, requesting injunctive relief, compensatory damages, punitive damages, and disgorgement of profits but in 2024 asked the court to dismiss the lawsuit. The perpetrators were caught red-handed and let, go by Apple! This crime can, will, and has continued to happen due to the negligence of Apple's leadership. No doubt influenced by Tim Cook's obligation to the White House and their friends.
    - saagarjha 1y ago
      If I remember correctly the Israeli government stepped in and seized all the material that Apple could use in the lawsuit, so there was no point in continuing.
      - bigyabai 1y ago
        If Israel can deter Apple so easily, that doesn't bode well at all for Apple's stance towards American surveillance.
        astrange 1y ago
        It's just a private company. They only have power compared to governments in Cyberpunk.
- pparanoidd 1y ago
  >None of this is for users Your hatred for apple has made you genuinely delusional
  - user3939382 1y ago
    A company who cared about users instead of its own profits wouldn’t do any of the things Apple does. Who’s really the naive one here?
astrange 1y ago
If you like using debuggers, don't worry, MTE gives you a lot more chances to use them since it finds a lot more crashes. It doesn't stop you writing to memory though, as long as it's the correct type. PAC may stop you from changing values - or at least you'd have to run code in the process to change them.
b_e_n_t_o_n 1y ago
I think if you want to tinker with hardware, you shouldn't buy Apple. It's designed for people who use it as a means to an end, and I think that's a good thing for most people (including me). I want to bank on hardware that I can trust to be secure. Nothing wrong with building your own linux box for play time though.
nine_k 1y ago
It's all fun and games until somebody else patches the RAM of your device, and sends your money away from your account. More interesting is how to trace and debug code on such a CPU. Because what a debugger often does is exactly patching an executable in RAM, peeks and pokes inside, etc. If such an interface exists, I wonder how is it protected; do you need extra physical wires like JTAG? If it does not, how do you even troubleshoot a program running on the target hardware?
- saagarjha 1y ago
  You disable mitigations for those processes.
  - superkuh 1y ago
    So what stops malware from disabling the mitigations? This is the same issue that Firefox had re: requiring all add-ons to be approved and cryptographically signed by them. If it were possible to disable it it'd be useless. So 99.999% of firefox executables simply cannot run anything not first signed by Moz.
    - saagarjha 1y ago
      Currently you can't disable these if you don't have developer mode turned on
snowwrestler 1y ago
It’s a shame you’re getting downvoted because I think you’re correct, and this is a perfectly valid opinion to hold. I would respond by saying that sometimes I actually want a locked-down bank terminal (when I’m banking for example), and I appreciate the opportunity to buy one. Computing hardware in general is way less expensive and more abundant than it used to be, so there are still many options in the marketplace for people to peek and poke into.
- superkuh 1y ago
  >sometimes I actually want a locked-down bank terminal (when I’m banking for example), and I appreciate the opportunity to buy one. Yep, it's a valid use case. It's just not a general purpose computer. And it's a complete refutation of the ideals of Apple when it started out (see, 1984 commercial).

user3939382 1y ago

Bingo. None of this is for users. Apple somehow managed to put on a marketing mask of user respect when they’re at least as user abusive as anyone else.

astrange 1y ago
https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jan/17/two-female-activists-in-bahrain-and-jordan-hacked-with-nso-spyware https://www.theguardian.com/news/2022/jan/17/two-female-acti...
- bigyabai 1y ago
  It's detestable how Apple handled the aftermath of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FORCEDENTRY https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FORCEDENTRY In November 2021, Apple Inc. filed a complaint against NSO Group and its parent company Q Cyber Technologies in the United States District Court for the Northern District of California in relation to FORCEDENTRY, requesting injunctive relief, compensatory damages, punitive damages, and disgorgement of profits but in 2024 asked the court to dismiss the lawsuit. The perpetrators were caught red-handed and let, go by Apple! This crime can, will, and has continued to happen due to the negligence of Apple's leadership. No doubt influenced by Tim Cook's obligation to the White House and their friends.
  - saagarjha 1y ago
    If I remember correctly the Israeli government stepped in and seized all the material that Apple could use in the lawsuit, so there was no point in continuing.
    - bigyabai 1y ago
      If Israel can deter Apple so easily, that doesn't bode well at all for Apple's stance towards American surveillance.
      - astrange 1y ago
        It's just a private company. They only have power compared to governments in Cyberpunk.
pparanoidd 1y ago
>None of this is for users Your hatred for apple has made you genuinely delusional
- user3939382 1y ago
  A company who cared about users instead of its own profits wouldn’t do any of the things Apple does. Who’s really the naive one here?

astrange 1y ago

If you like using debuggers, don't worry, MTE gives you a lot more chances to use them since it finds a lot more crashes. It doesn't stop you writing to memory though, as long as it's the correct type. PAC may stop you from changing values - or at least you'd have to run code in the process to change them.

b_e_n_t_o_n 1y ago

I think if you want to tinker with hardware, you shouldn't buy Apple. It's designed for people who use it as a means to an end, and I think that's a good thing for most people (including me). I want to bank on hardware that I can trust to be secure. Nothing wrong with building your own linux box for play time though.

nine_k 1y ago

It's all fun and games until somebody else patches the RAM of your device, and sends your money away from your account. More interesting is how to trace and debug code on such a CPU. Because what a debugger often does is exactly patching an executable in RAM, peeks and pokes inside, etc. If such an interface exists, I wonder how is it protected; do you need extra physical wires like JTAG? If it does not, how do you even troubleshoot a program running on the target hardware?

saagarjha 1y ago
You disable mitigations for those processes.
- superkuh 1y ago
  So what stops malware from disabling the mitigations? This is the same issue that Firefox had re: requiring all add-ons to be approved and cryptographically signed by them. If it were possible to disable it it'd be useless. So 99.999% of firefox executables simply cannot run anything not first signed by Moz.
  - saagarjha 1y ago
    Currently you can't disable these if you don't have developer mode turned on

snowwrestler 1y ago

It’s a shame you’re getting downvoted because I think you’re correct, and this is a perfectly valid opinion to hold. I would respond by saying that sometimes I actually want a locked-down bank terminal (when I’m banking for example), and I appreciate the opportunity to buy one. Computing hardware in general is way less expensive and more abundant than it used to be, so there are still many options in the marketplace for people to peek and poke into.

superkuh 1y ago
>sometimes I actually want a locked-down bank terminal (when I’m banking for example), and I appreciate the opportunity to buy one. Yep, it's a valid use case. It's just not a general purpose computer. And it's a complete refutation of the ideals of Apple when it started out (see, 1984 commercial).