4 ms·

Commute time should be salaried time. Then the whole office/home work discussion could be taken with the true costs involved.

by tokai 1y ago

HarHarVeryFunny 1y ago
Sounds a bit extreme, but OTOH this is what tradesfolk typically do - charge $100 to ring your doorbell and take it from there, since it does cost them money just to get to you. Still, even if there is some sort of justification (moreso if the company chooses to locate themselves away from residential/affordable areas), I'm not sure how you would avoid abuse. Maybe just pay employees a fixed amount for each day they are required to drive to the office ?
- wongarsu 1y ago
  With tradesfolk you can choose who to call, and somebody from farther away will charge more for getting to your door. With workers that is not a consideration today (in most roles), but if companies had to pay for travel time it absolutely would be. But that leads to uncomfortable questions about moving. If you get children and move to an area with a better school, can and will your work now fire you because your commute got more expensive for them? A fixed payment for office days would remove that, but then how do you determine the price of that payment?
  - ghaff 1y ago
    I think my contractors have generally had a general service area. And, if you're out of it, they're probably not interested. Now, mind you, I often don't have a super-itemized bill. But I'm not sure I've seen a commute time/cost line item.
    - HarHarVeryFunny 1y ago
      Yeah, I can't recall anyone ever putting it down explicitly as a line item, but a number of them will tell on the phone you there's a minimum charge for coming out. For some reason locksmiths seem to always do this.
      - ghaff 1y ago
        I expect a lot of jobs that locksmiths do are pretty quick and easy for them. I went down a file cabinet lockpicking hole a couple of months back and ended up just drilling out the lock. I expect a locksmith could have handled it in a few minutes (if that) but if they had to drive 30 minutes to my house they have to collect for that somehow.
Philadelphia 1y ago
And workers should be paid to have space to work from home and internet service and food and office supplies and electricity.
- trenchpilgrim 1y ago
  I'm a remote worker and I get an annual stipend to equip my home office and reinbursement for my internet and cell phone. The stipend is flexible. Some of my coworkers stocked their home office with snacks, for example.
- rimunroe 1y ago
  Agreed. I'm glad that I at least get reimbursed for a portion of my home internet connection and for office equipment.
  - ghaff 1y ago
    Most of which you would have anyway. I never cared about incremental costs for internet, electricity, etc. if any. I could have probably collected double-digit dollars per month during COVID but I wasn't even officially remote anyway.
    - rimunroe 1y ago
      > Most of which you would have anyway. Data caps exist and also higher service reliability tiers cost more.
      - ghaff 1y ago
        The standard residential plan I had was fine for any work purposes. As far as I'm concerned, incremental needs for normal work are in the noise. I did have outages now and then but they were pretty much for reasons that would have applied to any business service as lines were down.
    - prmoustache 1y ago
      I definitely pay for more bandwith than if I wasn't working from home. Also I saw a difference in my electricity bills.
wongarsu 1y ago
Nobody's stopping you from moving closer to the office, and incentivizing people to move further away is the last thing we should do Yes, rent 5 minutes from the office is likely very high, and it's much cheaper two hours away, and that's why most people live far away. But that is already a factor in salaries. If the office is in a high-cost-of-living area they have to offer higher salaries to get an equal caliber of workers.
- fzeroracer 1y ago
  This definitely is not how it works. There are a ton of companies in Irvine for example that vastly underpay their developers compared to the cost of living in the area. And if you were to assume that's how it works, then companies should be offering salary increases for RTO which is very obviously not happening.
  - wongarsu 1y ago
    Companies that underpay compared to cost of living exist everywhere, even in the cheap places. They usually end up with the people who can't get or don't want a better paying job. And yes, companies should be paying salary increases for RTO if they hired on the promise of remote work. Not doing that will just means you now offer worse compensation compared to job conditions and are going to lose some people to greener pastures. Which might be a factor in Microsoft's timing: less job mobility right now
- dakiol 1y ago
  > Nobody's stopping you from moving closer to the office Price per square meter is.
- johnnyanmac 1y ago
  >Nobody's stopping you from moving closer to the office the stiff housing market indeed is. You can't buy land that isn't for sale. Nevermind that most people cannot just up and move whenever their work fancies it. And you don't want to. Too many horror stories of people who moved for their job only to get laid off a few months later. Corporate isn't taking my community with them. >If the office is in a high-cost-of-living area they have to offer higher salaries to get an equal caliber of workers. Or they just offshore it.
Anon1096 1y ago
As a salaried employee there is no "salaried time." You're paid for your output not the time spent on it. This goes especially true for Microsoft where lots of people put in far less than a 40hr workweek. Literally no one bats an eye at arriving at the office late so if you want to start your commute at 9 and include that in your "working hours" no one would care.
- moralestapia 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - bsimpson 1y ago
    At most tech companies, you can work 5 hours per week or 100 and your salary remains the same. If they see you working 5 hours per week and don't think you're productive enough, they can fire you, but you aren't paid any more for working more hours. That's what "salaried" means. It's why you've never heard someone getting paid "time and a half" for working weekends in tech.
    - bottd 1y ago
      I have yet to experience a role where workers are allowed to deliver while clocking less than 40 hours. 5 hours per week on salary is only if you do not tell management.
      - selkin 1y ago
        Or are management.
    - themafia 1y ago
      > It's why you've never heard someone getting paid "time and a half" for working weekends in tech. It depends on the state. In California there are minimum salary requirements, that are adjusted every year, that must be met to be an exempt position. Otherwise you are required to pay hourly. It's honestly one of the nice features of the state.
Aurornis 1y ago
> Commute time should be salaried time. Salary means you're paid a fixed amount per pay period, regardless of hours worked. So including commute in your hours worked wouldn't change your salary, which is by definition a fixed amount. Did you mean that commute time should be paid hourly at an additional rate?
- prmoustache 1y ago
  This depends on the juridictions.
  - dymk 1y ago
    The jurisdiction is Redmond, WA
    - renewiltord 1y ago
      That depends on which timeline we're working in. In alternative universes, Microsoft is called Megahard and is started in a town called Rougeworld, WA.
- wpm 1y ago
  I'm salaried but my contract specifies 'expected hours' from 9-5 or 8-5 with an unpaid lunch.

Commute time should be salaried time. Then the whole office/home work discussion could be taken with the true costs involved.

by tokai 1y ago

Commute time should be salaried time. Then the whole office/home work discussion could be taken with the true costs involved.

HarHarVeryFunny 1y ago

Sounds a bit extreme, but OTOH this is what tradesfolk typically do - charge $100 to ring your doorbell and take it from there, since it does cost them money just to get to you. Still, even if there is some sort of justification (moreso if the company chooses to locate themselves away from residential/affordable areas), I'm not sure how you would avoid abuse. Maybe just pay employees a fixed amount for each day they are required to drive to the office ?

wongarsu 1y ago
With tradesfolk you can choose who to call, and somebody from farther away will charge more for getting to your door. With workers that is not a consideration today (in most roles), but if companies had to pay for travel time it absolutely would be. But that leads to uncomfortable questions about moving. If you get children and move to an area with a better school, can and will your work now fire you because your commute got more expensive for them? A fixed payment for office days would remove that, but then how do you determine the price of that payment?
- ghaff 1y ago
  I think my contractors have generally had a general service area. And, if you're out of it, they're probably not interested. Now, mind you, I often don't have a super-itemized bill. But I'm not sure I've seen a commute time/cost line item.
  - HarHarVeryFunny 1y ago
    Yeah, I can't recall anyone ever putting it down explicitly as a line item, but a number of them will tell on the phone you there's a minimum charge for coming out. For some reason locksmiths seem to always do this.
    - ghaff 1y ago
      I expect a lot of jobs that locksmiths do are pretty quick and easy for them. I went down a file cabinet lockpicking hole a couple of months back and ended up just drilling out the lock. I expect a locksmith could have handled it in a few minutes (if that) but if they had to drive 30 minutes to my house they have to collect for that somehow.

Philadelphia 1y ago

And workers should be paid to have space to work from home and internet service and food and office supplies and electricity.

trenchpilgrim 1y ago
I'm a remote worker and I get an annual stipend to equip my home office and reinbursement for my internet and cell phone. The stipend is flexible. Some of my coworkers stocked their home office with snacks, for example.
rimunroe 1y ago
Agreed. I'm glad that I at least get reimbursed for a portion of my home internet connection and for office equipment.
- ghaff 1y ago
  Most of which you would have anyway. I never cared about incremental costs for internet, electricity, etc. if any. I could have probably collected double-digit dollars per month during COVID but I wasn't even officially remote anyway.
  - rimunroe 1y ago
    > Most of which you would have anyway. Data caps exist and also higher service reliability tiers cost more.
    - ghaff 1y ago
      The standard residential plan I had was fine for any work purposes. As far as I'm concerned, incremental needs for normal work are in the noise. I did have outages now and then but they were pretty much for reasons that would have applied to any business service as lines were down.
  - prmoustache 1y ago
    I definitely pay for more bandwith than if I wasn't working from home. Also I saw a difference in my electricity bills.

wongarsu 1y ago

Nobody's stopping you from moving closer to the office, and incentivizing people to move further away is the last thing we should do Yes, rent 5 minutes from the office is likely very high, and it's much cheaper two hours away, and that's why most people live far away. But that is already a factor in salaries. If the office is in a high-cost-of-living area they have to offer higher salaries to get an equal caliber of workers.

fzeroracer 1y ago
This definitely is not how it works. There are a ton of companies in Irvine for example that vastly underpay their developers compared to the cost of living in the area. And if you were to assume that's how it works, then companies should be offering salary increases for RTO which is very obviously not happening.
- wongarsu 1y ago
  Companies that underpay compared to cost of living exist everywhere, even in the cheap places. They usually end up with the people who can't get or don't want a better paying job. And yes, companies should be paying salary increases for RTO if they hired on the promise of remote work. Not doing that will just means you now offer worse compensation compared to job conditions and are going to lose some people to greener pastures. Which might be a factor in Microsoft's timing: less job mobility right now
dakiol 1y ago
> Nobody's stopping you from moving closer to the office Price per square meter is.
johnnyanmac 1y ago
>Nobody's stopping you from moving closer to the office the stiff housing market indeed is. You can't buy land that isn't for sale. Nevermind that most people cannot just up and move whenever their work fancies it. And you don't want to. Too many horror stories of people who moved for their job only to get laid off a few months later. Corporate isn't taking my community with them. >If the office is in a high-cost-of-living area they have to offer higher salaries to get an equal caliber of workers. Or they just offshore it.

Anon1096 1y ago

As a salaried employee there is no "salaried time." You're paid for your output not the time spent on it. This goes especially true for Microsoft where lots of people put in far less than a 40hr workweek. Literally no one bats an eye at arriving at the office late so if you want to start your commute at 9 and include that in your "working hours" no one would care.

moralestapia 1y ago
[flagged]
- bsimpson 1y ago
  At most tech companies, you can work 5 hours per week or 100 and your salary remains the same. If they see you working 5 hours per week and don't think you're productive enough, they can fire you, but you aren't paid any more for working more hours. That's what "salaried" means. It's why you've never heard someone getting paid "time and a half" for working weekends in tech.
  - bottd 1y ago
    I have yet to experience a role where workers are allowed to deliver while clocking less than 40 hours. 5 hours per week on salary is only if you do not tell management.
    - selkin 1y ago
      Or are management.
  - themafia 1y ago
    > It's why you've never heard someone getting paid "time and a half" for working weekends in tech. It depends on the state. In California there are minimum salary requirements, that are adjusted every year, that must be met to be an exempt position. Otherwise you are required to pay hourly. It's honestly one of the nice features of the state.

Aurornis 1y ago

> Commute time should be salaried time. Salary means you're paid a fixed amount per pay period, regardless of hours worked. So including commute in your hours worked wouldn't change your salary, which is by definition a fixed amount. Did you mean that commute time should be paid hourly at an additional rate?

prmoustache 1y ago
This depends on the juridictions.
- dymk 1y ago
  The jurisdiction is Redmond, WA
  - renewiltord 1y ago
    That depends on which timeline we're working in. In alternative universes, Microsoft is called Megahard and is started in a town called Rougeworld, WA.
wpm 1y ago
I'm salaried but my contract specifies 'expected hours' from 9-5 or 8-5 with an unpaid lunch.