3 ms·

"Just wait 2 weeks to use new versions by default" is an amazing defense method against supply chain attacks.

by blamestross 1y ago

kevinrineer 1y ago
Its also really ineffective defense against 0 days!
- blamestross 1y ago
  Sadly we don't have any defense against 0 days if an emergency patch is indistinguishable from an attack itself. Better defense would be to delete or quarantine the compromised versions, fail to build and escalate to a human for zero-day defense.
  - minitech 1y ago
    > Sadly we don't have any defense against 0 days if an emergency patch is indistinguishable from an attack itself. Reading the code content of emergency patches should be part of the job. Of course, with better code trust tools (there seem to have been some attempts at that lately, not sure where they’re at), we can delegate that and still do much better than the current state of things.
- ozim 1y ago
  IF I put my risk management hat on - 0 days in npm ecosystem are not that much of a problem. They stop working before can use them.
- easterncalculus 1y ago
  In the context of a single system, there is no such thing as an "effective defense against 0 days" - that's marketing babble. A zero day by definition is an exploit with no defense. That's literally what that means.
  - hdjrudni 1y ago
    That doesn't sound right. > A zero-day exploit is a cyberattack vector that takes advantage of an unknown or unaddressed security flaw in computer software, hardware or firmware. "Zero day" refers to the fact that the software or device vendor has zero days to fix the flaw because malicious actors can already use it to access vulnerable systems. If I never install the infected software, I'm not vulnerable, even if no one knows of its existence. That said, you could argue that because it's a zero day and no one caught it, it can lie dormant for >2 weeks so your "just wait awhile" strategy might not work if no one catches it in that period. But if you're a hacker, sitting on a goldmine of infected computers... do you really want to wait it out to scoop up more victims before activating it? It might be caught.
    - saberience 1y ago
      Yeah but zero days usually refers to some software which is commonly installed. E.g. a zero day in the version of windows or mac os that most people are using. No one bothers finding 0-days in software which no one has installed.
booi 1y ago
Is there some sort of easy operational way to do this? There are well known tech companies that do this internally but afaik this isn't a feature of OSS registries like verdaccio
- fclairamb 1y ago
  Renovate is a great (and free) tool to update your dependencies. By default it will update packages in the hours (often minutes) of their release but you can change that behavior with the minimumReleaseAge parameter. https://docs.renovatebot.com/configuration-options/#minimumreleaseage https://docs.renovatebot.com/configuration-options/#minimumr...
  - Apfel 1y ago
    The one big problem Renovate brings is when it automerges and breaks everything with e.g. a TypeScript upgrade. It's simple enough to handle and prevent but has required quite a lot of developer education for those who are not particularly frontend-focused in my experience.
    - jamietanna 1y ago
      Interesting, so you've enabled Renovate's automerge functionality for dependencies? Renovate uses signals like your CI to work out whether things break before an automerge occurs - does that mean your CI didn't catch the breakage? Or something I've missed? (there's also the "merge confidence" that can help here) (I'm soon to be working at Mend on Renovate full time)
  - jamietanna 1y ago
    Yep, Renovate's `minimumReleaseAge` is what you want here Dependabot has recently added this functionality too - it's called `cooldown` https://docs.github.com/en/code-security/dependabot/working-with-dependabot/dependabot-options-reference#cooldown- https://docs.github.com/en/code-security/dependabot/working-... (I'm soon to be working at Mend on Renovate full time, but have been a big fan of Renovate over other tools for years)

"Just wait 2 weeks to use new versions by default" is an amazing defense method against supply chain attacks.

kevinrineer 1y ago

Its also really ineffective defense against 0 days!

blamestross 1y ago
Sadly we don't have any defense against 0 days if an emergency patch is indistinguishable from an attack itself. Better defense would be to delete or quarantine the compromised versions, fail to build and escalate to a human for zero-day defense.
- minitech 1y ago
  > Sadly we don't have any defense against 0 days if an emergency patch is indistinguishable from an attack itself. Reading the code content of emergency patches should be part of the job. Of course, with better code trust tools (there seem to have been some attempts at that lately, not sure where they’re at), we can delegate that and still do much better than the current state of things.
ozim 1y ago
IF I put my risk management hat on - 0 days in npm ecosystem are not that much of a problem. They stop working before can use them.
easterncalculus 1y ago
In the context of a single system, there is no such thing as an "effective defense against 0 days" - that's marketing babble. A zero day by definition is an exploit with no defense. That's literally what that means.
- hdjrudni 1y ago
  That doesn't sound right. > A zero-day exploit is a cyberattack vector that takes advantage of an unknown or unaddressed security flaw in computer software, hardware or firmware. "Zero day" refers to the fact that the software or device vendor has zero days to fix the flaw because malicious actors can already use it to access vulnerable systems. If I never install the infected software, I'm not vulnerable, even if no one knows of its existence. That said, you could argue that because it's a zero day and no one caught it, it can lie dormant for >2 weeks so your "just wait awhile" strategy might not work if no one catches it in that period. But if you're a hacker, sitting on a goldmine of infected computers... do you really want to wait it out to scoop up more victims before activating it? It might be caught.
  - saberience 1y ago
    Yeah but zero days usually refers to some software which is commonly installed. E.g. a zero day in the version of windows or mac os that most people are using. No one bothers finding 0-days in software which no one has installed.

booi 1y ago

Is there some sort of easy operational way to do this? There are well known tech companies that do this internally but afaik this isn't a feature of OSS registries like verdaccio

fclairamb 1y ago
Renovate is a great (and free) tool to update your dependencies. By default it will update packages in the hours (often minutes) of their release but you can change that behavior with the minimumReleaseAge parameter. https://docs.renovatebot.com/configuration-options/#minimumreleaseage https://docs.renovatebot.com/configuration-options/#minimumr...
- Apfel 1y ago
  The one big problem Renovate brings is when it automerges and breaks everything with e.g. a TypeScript upgrade. It's simple enough to handle and prevent but has required quite a lot of developer education for those who are not particularly frontend-focused in my experience.
  - jamietanna 1y ago
    Interesting, so you've enabled Renovate's automerge functionality for dependencies? Renovate uses signals like your CI to work out whether things break before an automerge occurs - does that mean your CI didn't catch the breakage? Or something I've missed? (there's also the "merge confidence" that can help here) (I'm soon to be working at Mend on Renovate full time)
- jamietanna 1y ago
  Yep, Renovate's `minimumReleaseAge` is what you want here Dependabot has recently added this functionality too - it's called `cooldown` https://docs.github.com/en/code-security/dependabot/working-with-dependabot/dependabot-options-reference#cooldown- https://docs.github.com/en/code-security/dependabot/working-... (I'm soon to be working at Mend on Renovate full time, but have been a big fan of Renovate over other tools for years)