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> An ESTA or B1 visa lets you attend business meetings. How do you draw the line between “work” and “meeting”? This is a construction site. Do you have a tool
by CPLX 1y ago
> An ESTA or B1 visa lets you attend business meetings. How do you draw the line between “work” and “meeting”?
This is a construction site. Do you have a tool in your hand? Then you’re not in a fucking meeting. This isn’t that complicated.
> A sibling comment to yours [1] describes a situation where moving office chairs from one meeting room to another was considered union work. How are Korean experts supposed to know you shouldn’t do that when attending a meeting or you risk being thrown in jail for violating your visa?
How are you supposed to know the laws of any country you visit? Do you have some kind of universal rule you’re applying here? If I don’t know what kilometers are can I get away with speeding in Switzerland?
> That’s an extreme case, but it illustrates that this isn’t some clear-cut case of knowingly doing work that wasn’t permitted.
The details here seem to be in short supply but if they were acting as construction workers or even foreman on tourist or B1 visas what they were doing is clearly illegal. Hyundai is a multi billion dollar company they’re well capable of knowing and following US labor laws. If they can’t they have no business building a factory in the US obviously.
- pavlov 1y agoWhat evidence do you have that the Korean Hyundai employees were construction workers or foremen? Why would Hyundai fly that kind of workers from across the world?
- CPLX 1y agoThe fact that many were wearing hard hats and hi-vis vests in the photos of the raid seems relevant right? They raided a construction site, not an office building. What do you think they were doing there?
- pavlov 1y agoAn architect would wear a hard hat and vest to a construction site. Does that make them a construction worker?
- CPLX 1y agoYes of course. An architect is a well established job on any large scale construction project. Do you think all construction workers are unskilled laborers? If they were practicing architecture in the US without proper work visas it would be illegal.
- pavlov 1y agoOk, you’re saying that a Korean architect working for Hyundai isn’t allowed to visit a Hyundai work site on ESTA or B-1. What kind of visa do they need to get? Please be very specific. I’ve had L-1 and O-1 visas to the US in the past. Those were complicated processes that took many months and cost over $10k in legal fees each time. Those visas are explicitly meant for multi-year stays, not just work site visits. But is that the type of visa the architect should get for this business trip? If not, then what?
- CPLX 1y agoA Korean architect might well be allowed to come for meetings or to supervise on a B-1. They might not, depending on what they actually do. The laws are written out and there's lots of precedent. The point I'm making is if there's 300 people with hard hats and hi-vis vests that say "mechanic" on them (to name one example I saw in a video of the raid) there's a pretty reasonable chance they're very clearly on the wrong side of visa law.
- viraptor 1y agoYou can't typically enter a construction site without a hardhat and hi-vis. Even as a visitor. And even if you can, you may not want to for your own safety. What they were wearing says absolutely nothing about their work.
- CPLX 1y agoI mean it says something about their work. It says they were in an active construction site. What do you think they were doing there? Having a 300+ person “business meeting”?
- viraptor 1y agoPeople who were having a meeting at my home construction site: architect, builders' reception staff, inspectors, interior person, electrician's staff, garden designer, etc. and that's just for a simple house. There's going to be so many more options for a factory.
- CPLX 1y agoYeah if those people weren't authorized to work in the United States, and they did any work at all (rather than strictly doing only "meetings" and then leaving the country again) that would be illegal. This isn't all that complicated.
- viraptor 1y agoAs you say, it's an "if". There was no testimony so far. For now we don't know what they did there. I'm just pointing out that no, the photos really do not say much about their work.
- CPLX 1y agoWe'll have to agree to disagree on that. If there are hundreds of people dressed like construction workers at a plant, it's reasonable to think there's a good chance they're doing construction work. If they are it's illegal.
- nashashmi 1y agoUnion rules are not laws of the country. The PC meant to illustrate an example of a harmless rule violation. And the discussion is supposed to be whether it is the visa employee's fault.
- CPLX 1y agoIs your theory that they were handcuffed for violating union rules, or U.S. laws?
- pavlov 1y agoIt sure seems like the ICE simply handcuffed every foreigner at the site.
- nashashmi 1y agoICE handcuffed them. And their department is immigration laws. But whatever the reason, it does not hold up on the ICE's side.
- CPLX 1y agoI have absolutely zero respect for ICE these days and their ability to be honest about anything. But with that caveat there are straightforward allegations of violations of well established US law here. The comments about breaking nitpicky union rules are intended to distract from that fact.
- nashashmi 1y agoStraightforward? Name the laws.
- CPLX 1y ago9 FAM 402.2-5(E)(1) (U) Commercial or Industrial Workers (CT:VISA-1288; 05-21-2021) a. (U) An applicant coming to the United States to install, service, or repair commercial or industrial equipment or machinery purchased from a company outside the United States or to train U.S. workers to perform such services. However, in such cases, the contract of sale must specifically require the seller to provide such services or training and the visa applicant must possess unique knowledge that is essential to the seller’s contractual obligation to perform the services or training and must receive no remuneration from a U.S. source. b. (U) These provisions do not apply to an applicant seeking to perform building or construction work, whether on-site or in-plant. The exception is for an applicant who is applying for a B-1 visa for supervising or training other workers engaged in building or construction work, but not actually performing any such building or construction work.