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> Suppose that the plant made special workers do non-special work, the hammer does not fall on the workers. Your boss telling you to violate the terms of your

> Suppose that the plant made special workers do non-special work, the hammer does not fall on the workers. Your boss telling you to violate the terms of your visa doesn't mean you get to do that. They violated their visas, so they get kicked out.

nashashmi 1y ago
The visa was procured by the business under the auspices of doing business. The business holds responsibility that the worker performs operation for the business in the parameters that the business visa works in. The same goes for H2B visas.
pavlov 1y ago
If only it were that simple. An ESTA or B1 visa lets you attend business meetings. How do you draw the line between “work” and “meeting”? A sibling comment to yours [1] describes a situation where moving office chairs from one meeting room to another was considered union work. How are Korean experts supposed to know you shouldn’t do that when attending a meeting or you risk being thrown in jail for violating your visa? That’s an extreme case, but it illustrates that this isn’t some clear-cut case of knowingly doing work that wasn’t permitted. - - [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45184501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45184501
- CPLX 1y ago
  > An ESTA or B1 visa lets you attend business meetings. How do you draw the line between “work” and “meeting”? This is a construction site. Do you have a tool in your hand? Then you’re not in a fucking meeting. This isn’t that complicated. > A sibling comment to yours [1] describes a situation where moving office chairs from one meeting room to another was considered union work. How are Korean experts supposed to know you shouldn’t do that when attending a meeting or you risk being thrown in jail for violating your visa? How are you supposed to know the laws of any country you visit? Do you have some kind of universal rule you’re applying here? If I don’t know what kilometers are can I get away with speeding in Switzerland? > That’s an extreme case, but it illustrates that this isn’t some clear-cut case of knowingly doing work that wasn’t permitted. The details here seem to be in short supply but if they were acting as construction workers or even foreman on tourist or B1 visas what they were doing is clearly illegal. Hyundai is a multi billion dollar company they’re well capable of knowing and following US labor laws. If they can’t they have no business building a factory in the US obviously.
  - pavlov 1y ago
    What evidence do you have that the Korean Hyundai employees were construction workers or foremen? Why would Hyundai fly that kind of workers from across the world?
    - CPLX 1y ago
      The fact that many were wearing hard hats and hi-vis vests in the photos of the raid seems relevant right? They raided a construction site, not an office building. What do you think they were doing there?
      - pavlov 1y ago
        An architect would wear a hard hat and vest to a construction site. Does that make them a construction worker?
        CPLX 1y ago
        Yes of course. An architect is a well established job on any large scale construction project. Do you think all construction workers are unskilled laborers? If they were practicing architecture in the US without proper work visas it would be illegal.
        pavlov 1y ago
        Ok, you’re saying that a Korean architect working for Hyundai isn’t allowed to visit a Hyundai work site on ESTA or B-1. What kind of visa do they need to get? Please be very specific. I’ve had L-1 and O-1 visas to the US in the past. Those were complicated processes that took many months and cost over $10k in legal fees each time. Those visas are explicitly meant for multi-year stays, not just work site visits. But is that the type of visa the architect should get for this business trip? If not, then what?
        CPLX 1y ago
fragmede 1y ago
That's incredibly shortsighted. Hyundai invested a shit ton of time and money and effort into making a plant in a shit hole of a state to make it less of a shit hole. Now, there's a group of South Koreans who have first hand experience of America being shit. They're gonna go home and tell everyone that will listen, that Americans are all shitheads, and fuck those people, and never come back. Why would Hyundai ever open another American plant if that's how their people get treated? Have you been arrested? It's humiliating. It's not that they broke the rules, it's how they're being enforced. That visa has always been fine for that. If we wanted to change how things work, a competent state department would have telegraphed changes coming down the pipeline months in advance, and spared everyone the humiliation of being abducted by ICE.
- CPLX 1y ago
  This is an insightful comment on what is apparently a multi-billion dollar charity known as Hyundai, and their desire to improve the state of Georgia. I had mistakenly confused them with the multi-national Chaebol of the same name that is known for ruthless business competition and making decisions to maximize their own profits and shareholder wealth.
  - fragmede 1y ago
    You are forgiven. It's pretty confusing, I know. Those people with the different skin and hair color have emotions and families, even though they don't speak English.
    - CPLX 1y ago
      What do you suppose the answer to this question is: > Why would Hyundai ever open another American plant if that's how their people get treated?
      - komali2 1y ago
        I've followed you through this thread and I'm really curious about your political ideology. On the one hand you've been making the stark, cynical observations I expect from leftist: analyzing the company's behavior from a lens of profit motive, discussing how corporations will outsource to other countries to skirt labor law and pay slave wages, defending unions, discussing how immigrant labor is just another form of outsourcing; on the other hand you've engaged in hard-line liberal defense of law for the sake of law: never mind that a bunch of non citizens were just subjected to violence at the hands of the state, perhaps they violated the law and therefore they're subject to whatever degredation the legal apparatus throws at them! Finally, you, perhaps inadvertently, are defending the actions of America's most right wing government it possibly has ever had, continually pulling out their own propaganda lines: "they were violating the terms of their visa and have to go!" I like meeting people like that, if you were open to sharing how you arrived at this more-complicated-than-normal political ideology, I'd be interested to know more.

nashashmi 1y ago

The visa was procured by the business under the auspices of doing business. The business holds responsibility that the worker performs operation for the business in the parameters that the business visa works in. The same goes for H2B visas.

pavlov 1y ago

If only it were that simple. An ESTA or B1 visa lets you attend business meetings. How do you draw the line between “work” and “meeting”? A sibling comment to yours [1] describes a situation where moving office chairs from one meeting room to another was considered union work. How are Korean experts supposed to know you shouldn’t do that when attending a meeting or you risk being thrown in jail for violating your visa? That’s an extreme case, but it illustrates that this isn’t some clear-cut case of knowingly doing work that wasn’t permitted. - - [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45184501 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45184501

CPLX 1y ago
> An ESTA or B1 visa lets you attend business meetings. How do you draw the line between “work” and “meeting”? This is a construction site. Do you have a tool in your hand? Then you’re not in a fucking meeting. This isn’t that complicated. > A sibling comment to yours [1] describes a situation where moving office chairs from one meeting room to another was considered union work. How are Korean experts supposed to know you shouldn’t do that when attending a meeting or you risk being thrown in jail for violating your visa? How are you supposed to know the laws of any country you visit? Do you have some kind of universal rule you’re applying here? If I don’t know what kilometers are can I get away with speeding in Switzerland? > That’s an extreme case, but it illustrates that this isn’t some clear-cut case of knowingly doing work that wasn’t permitted. The details here seem to be in short supply but if they were acting as construction workers or even foreman on tourist or B1 visas what they were doing is clearly illegal. Hyundai is a multi billion dollar company they’re well capable of knowing and following US labor laws. If they can’t they have no business building a factory in the US obviously.
- pavlov 1y ago
  What evidence do you have that the Korean Hyundai employees were construction workers or foremen? Why would Hyundai fly that kind of workers from across the world?
  - CPLX 1y ago
    The fact that many were wearing hard hats and hi-vis vests in the photos of the raid seems relevant right? They raided a construction site, not an office building. What do you think they were doing there?
    - pavlov 1y ago
      An architect would wear a hard hat and vest to a construction site. Does that make them a construction worker?
      - CPLX 1y ago
        Yes of course. An architect is a well established job on any large scale construction project. Do you think all construction workers are unskilled laborers? If they were practicing architecture in the US without proper work visas it would be illegal.
        pavlov 1y ago
        Ok, you’re saying that a Korean architect working for Hyundai isn’t allowed to visit a Hyundai work site on ESTA or B-1. What kind of visa do they need to get? Please be very specific. I’ve had L-1 and O-1 visas to the US in the past. Those were complicated processes that took many months and cost over $10k in legal fees each time. Those visas are explicitly meant for multi-year stays, not just work site visits. But is that the type of visa the architect should get for this business trip? If not, then what?
        CPLX 1y ago

fragmede 1y ago

That's incredibly shortsighted. Hyundai invested a shit ton of time and money and effort into making a plant in a shit hole of a state to make it less of a shit hole. Now, there's a group of South Koreans who have first hand experience of America being shit. They're gonna go home and tell everyone that will listen, that Americans are all shitheads, and fuck those people, and never come back. Why would Hyundai ever open another American plant if that's how their people get treated? Have you been arrested? It's humiliating. It's not that they broke the rules, it's how they're being enforced. That visa has always been fine for that. If we wanted to change how things work, a competent state department would have telegraphed changes coming down the pipeline months in advance, and spared everyone the humiliation of being abducted by ICE.

CPLX 1y ago
This is an insightful comment on what is apparently a multi-billion dollar charity known as Hyundai, and their desire to improve the state of Georgia. I had mistakenly confused them with the multi-national Chaebol of the same name that is known for ruthless business competition and making decisions to maximize their own profits and shareholder wealth.
- fragmede 1y ago
  You are forgiven. It's pretty confusing, I know. Those people with the different skin and hair color have emotions and families, even though they don't speak English.
  - CPLX 1y ago
    What do you suppose the answer to this question is: > Why would Hyundai ever open another American plant if that's how their people get treated?
    - komali2 1y ago
      I've followed you through this thread and I'm really curious about your political ideology. On the one hand you've been making the stark, cynical observations I expect from leftist: analyzing the company's behavior from a lens of profit motive, discussing how corporations will outsource to other countries to skirt labor law and pay slave wages, defending unions, discussing how immigrant labor is just another form of outsourcing; on the other hand you've engaged in hard-line liberal defense of law for the sake of law: never mind that a bunch of non citizens were just subjected to violence at the hands of the state, perhaps they violated the law and therefore they're subject to whatever degredation the legal apparatus throws at them! Finally, you, perhaps inadvertently, are defending the actions of America's most right wing government it possibly has ever had, continually pulling out their own propaganda lines: "they were violating the terms of their visa and have to go!" I like meeting people like that, if you were open to sharing how you arrived at this more-complicated-than-normal political ideology, I'd be interested to know more.