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I think many Americans don't understand that the war in Ukraine is not a hobby for Europe like the Vietnam/Korea/Afghanistan/Iraq war were for the US. European

I think many Americans don't understand that the war in Ukraine is not a hobby for Europe like the Vietnam/Korea/Afghanistan/Iraq war were for the US. European security depends on winning the Ukraine war. Anders Puck Nielsen explains it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxapAZRYJ6I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxapAZRYJ6I This is why it makes sense to eat the tariffs as long as it keeps the weapons flowing from the US and why EU doesn't mind much paying for them.

tharmas 1y ago
[flagged]
- CamperBob2 1y ago
  Sure, Vlad. If Russia stops fighting, they lose the war. If Ukraine stops fighting, they lose the country.
  - tharmas 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - CamperBob2 1y ago
      The Ukrainians have lost a lot of men. Do u want more to die? That would be up to the Ukrainians, Vlad. Not my call. And it's also up to Putin, of course.
      - ponector 1y ago
        That is always funny how ruzzian supporters follow victim blaming patterns. Ukrainian war could be ended anytime, ruzzians can simply go home instead of dying for $20000. The second option to end the war is for Ukrainians to surrender. To surrender their country, culture and future. And become in 10 years a part of ruzzian occupation army somewhere in Estonia.
        tharmas 1y ago
        >Ukrainian war could be ended anytime Yes! In March 2022! Who wanted to keep it going? Who went to Ukraine on behalf of USA to scuttle peace talks? Boris Johnson. USA wanted this war. Putin's mistake was taking the bait.
        mopsi 1y ago
        > Who went to Ukraine on behalf of USA to scuttle peace talks? There was nothing to scuttle. To this day, Russia stands by the original demands of taking over Ukraine's government, disbanding its army, and blocking foreign aid to Ukraine. Or in other words, unconditional surrender. > USA wanted this war. Putin's mistake was taking the bait. After the invasion stalled in March 2022, I predicted that in ten years' time, Putin would be blamed for being a CIA agent sent to destroy Russia. Looks like we're halfway there. :)
        ponector 1y ago
        >>> Putin would be blamed for being a CIA agent sent to destroy Russia Have you seen how US soldiers have been rolling out red carpet for putin? A national hero was coming home.
        dragonwriter 1y ago
        They’ve occasionally given signs they’ll accept “just” keeping Crimea, a big swath of Eastern Ukraine, and structurally weakening Ukraine and blocking it from outside alliances. Which also amounts to unconditional surrender, but with extra steps.
    - Y-bar 1y ago
      Russia is free stop killing Ukrainians at any minute they want, why are you suggesting that Europe's support should stop and Ukraine must cease their defence?
  - tharmas 1y ago
    [flagged]
    - ponector 1y ago
      >> They will take all the Russian speaking parts like Odessa That's a ruzzian dream. Ruzzians can afford to take few villages near the front line, destroying every building in the process. Odessa? Why not Kyiv? There is no way they can take any major city, especially one of the biggest one. The best deal they can get is to keep occupied territory, without any recognition.
      - tharmas 1y ago
        To wear down Russia to manageable size: get the Ukrainians to pay in blood and the EU to pay for the bombs. Bonus: Germany crippled because cut off cheap gas supplies, and prevents Russia Germany alliance turning into rival superpower to USA. Another bonus is EU crippled with war debt. This war is about geopolitics. Not morals or ethics. The USA wanted this war to wear down Russian power. Putin took the bait. Who scuttled the early attempt at a peace deal? Boris Johnson, on behalf of USA. Because the USA wanted this war. But now Russia and China are allies. That's a bad geopolitical outcome for USA.
        CamperBob2 1y ago
        Dude, just stop. You're embarrassing yourself. They're not really going to give you an extra potato for every karma point you rack up. Maybe when Prigozhin was still running the show, but not now.
        tharmas 1y ago
        Why? Because i don't swallow neocon propaganda? I used to be just like u. I was outraged when Putin took Crimea in 2014. I watched the Maidan protests live. Then I dove into the history of Ukraine. And i began to learn things the news media doesn't tell you. I began, GASP, to change my mind. People ALWAYS resort to insults when you say the war is lost for Ukraine. Even if i was to be wrong why always the insults. Cant people disagree without resorting to insults?
  - tim333 1y ago
    I note in the lost war, Russia at its peak controlled 27% of Ukraine in 2022, and now after three years and ~1m casualties controls 19% and is having problems with its oil industry blowing up.
  - illiac786 1y ago
    agreed but I think you are underselling it. “loosing the country” sounds like an administrative detail. I know you probably do not mean this at all, but I’d like to remind everyone: reports coming from (previously) russian occupied areas are horrifying. Loosing the country would mean the situation of these areas extends to all of Ukraine. Even if the war ends, Russia will continue to run a regime of terror and brain washing to make sure no one ever even thinks of regaining independence again, ever.
- yes_man 1y ago
  The kind of conditions for peace Russia seems to be going for allows them an unfair position to restart the war in a few years, or pressure Ukraine to become a satellite state for Russia with threat of a new invasion. This is via demanding Ukraine imposes restrictions on their armed forces, Ukraine giving up territories Russia doesn’t even control today but which are awfully convenient invasion grounds in a potential future attack on Kyiv and declaring Western peacekeepers in Ukraine post-war as a dealbreaker by their FM. Not to even mention denying any future entry to an alliance like NATO. And all this by a country that has a record of breaking such agreements time and time again. Is this really a sound deal Ukraine should take?
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
sunshine-o 1y ago
> European security depends on winning the Ukraine war. This is absurd. Before 2021 and people were told to "care" about it, Ukraine was a "Westworld" type place for Europeans and others. If European security depends on Ukraine, why didn't Europe sent any troops there? This is very new, we fight an existential war now without sending any troops, money should be enough. Anyway the fact is almost 4 years in Ukraine is probably dead demographically. You can't really reboot a country after having so much of its "fighting age" male population dead. Especially because the one who will be left will be deranged, violent and addicted to all sort of things. And then having this type of nightmare on or within your borders is another pandora box. So now whether the EU declares it wins or looses the war, it has lost anyway. On the EU internal politics side, we are literally living in the Star Wars prequel trilogy. No need for much explanations.
- petertodd 1y ago
  > Anyway the fact is almost 4 years in Ukraine is probably dead demographically. You can't really reboot a country after having so much of its "fighting age" male population dead. You should actually look up the facts before making assumptions. Or, for example, actually visit Ukraine. Currently conscription is between ages 25 and 55; mobilization of younger men is not done specifically to ensure the next generation is not depleted, and men of all ages are fighting. You're actually more likely to get called up if you are in your 30's and 40's than if you are younger. There's about five million males currently in Ukraine in that age range, of which under 100,000 have been killed and under 500,000 wounded. That's just not an existential crisis at all. Germany the country survived WW2, and about half of their male population died in the war. This matches the on-the-ground reality: I've visited plenty of Ukrainian cities during the war, and there are plenty of males of all ages. Including young males. Any crisis they face is the same birthrate crisis that all developed countries face. And hopefully, the psychology of war will help reverse that --- Israel also has a notably high birthrate. > Especially because the one who will be left will be deranged, violent and addicted to all sort of things. I personally know quite a few Ukrainian soldiers who have seen action. They're all well functioning people. Combat when you're on the side of good rather than evil doesn't have the psychological toil people think it does. It's not nothing. But the supermajority of people recover just fine and go on to lead productive lives. An important part of that is recognizing that Ukraine is up against an irredeemably evil enemy. You were killing orcs, not men.

tharmas 1y ago

[flagged]

CamperBob2 1y ago
Sure, Vlad. If Russia stops fighting, they lose the war. If Ukraine stops fighting, they lose the country.
- tharmas 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - CamperBob2 1y ago
    The Ukrainians have lost a lot of men. Do u want more to die? That would be up to the Ukrainians, Vlad. Not my call. And it's also up to Putin, of course.
    - ponector 1y ago
      That is always funny how ruzzian supporters follow victim blaming patterns. Ukrainian war could be ended anytime, ruzzians can simply go home instead of dying for $20000. The second option to end the war is for Ukrainians to surrender. To surrender their country, culture and future. And become in 10 years a part of ruzzian occupation army somewhere in Estonia.
      - tharmas 1y ago
        >Ukrainian war could be ended anytime Yes! In March 2022! Who wanted to keep it going? Who went to Ukraine on behalf of USA to scuttle peace talks? Boris Johnson. USA wanted this war. Putin's mistake was taking the bait.
        mopsi 1y ago
        > Who went to Ukraine on behalf of USA to scuttle peace talks? There was nothing to scuttle. To this day, Russia stands by the original demands of taking over Ukraine's government, disbanding its army, and blocking foreign aid to Ukraine. Or in other words, unconditional surrender. > USA wanted this war. Putin's mistake was taking the bait. After the invasion stalled in March 2022, I predicted that in ten years' time, Putin would be blamed for being a CIA agent sent to destroy Russia. Looks like we're halfway there. :)
        ponector 1y ago
        >>> Putin would be blamed for being a CIA agent sent to destroy Russia Have you seen how US soldiers have been rolling out red carpet for putin? A national hero was coming home.
        dragonwriter 1y ago
        They’ve occasionally given signs they’ll accept “just” keeping Crimea, a big swath of Eastern Ukraine, and structurally weakening Ukraine and blocking it from outside alliances. Which also amounts to unconditional surrender, but with extra steps.
  - Y-bar 1y ago
    Russia is free stop killing Ukrainians at any minute they want, why are you suggesting that Europe's support should stop and Ukraine must cease their defence?
- tharmas 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - ponector 1y ago
    >> They will take all the Russian speaking parts like Odessa That's a ruzzian dream. Ruzzians can afford to take few villages near the front line, destroying every building in the process. Odessa? Why not Kyiv? There is no way they can take any major city, especially one of the biggest one. The best deal they can get is to keep occupied territory, without any recognition.
    - tharmas 1y ago
      To wear down Russia to manageable size: get the Ukrainians to pay in blood and the EU to pay for the bombs. Bonus: Germany crippled because cut off cheap gas supplies, and prevents Russia Germany alliance turning into rival superpower to USA. Another bonus is EU crippled with war debt. This war is about geopolitics. Not morals or ethics. The USA wanted this war to wear down Russian power. Putin took the bait. Who scuttled the early attempt at a peace deal? Boris Johnson, on behalf of USA. Because the USA wanted this war. But now Russia and China are allies. That's a bad geopolitical outcome for USA.
      - CamperBob2 1y ago
        Dude, just stop. You're embarrassing yourself. They're not really going to give you an extra potato for every karma point you rack up. Maybe when Prigozhin was still running the show, but not now.
        tharmas 1y ago
        Why? Because i don't swallow neocon propaganda? I used to be just like u. I was outraged when Putin took Crimea in 2014. I watched the Maidan protests live. Then I dove into the history of Ukraine. And i began to learn things the news media doesn't tell you. I began, GASP, to change my mind. People ALWAYS resort to insults when you say the war is lost for Ukraine. Even if i was to be wrong why always the insults. Cant people disagree without resorting to insults?
- tim333 1y ago
  I note in the lost war, Russia at its peak controlled 27% of Ukraine in 2022, and now after three years and ~1m casualties controls 19% and is having problems with its oil industry blowing up.
- illiac786 1y ago
  agreed but I think you are underselling it. “loosing the country” sounds like an administrative detail. I know you probably do not mean this at all, but I’d like to remind everyone: reports coming from (previously) russian occupied areas are horrifying. Loosing the country would mean the situation of these areas extends to all of Ukraine. Even if the war ends, Russia will continue to run a regime of terror and brain washing to make sure no one ever even thinks of regaining independence again, ever.
yes_man 1y ago
The kind of conditions for peace Russia seems to be going for allows them an unfair position to restart the war in a few years, or pressure Ukraine to become a satellite state for Russia with threat of a new invasion. This is via demanding Ukraine imposes restrictions on their armed forces, Ukraine giving up territories Russia doesn’t even control today but which are awfully convenient invasion grounds in a potential future attack on Kyiv and declaring Western peacekeepers in Ukraine post-war as a dealbreaker by their FM. Not to even mention denying any future entry to an alliance like NATO. And all this by a country that has a record of breaking such agreements time and time again. Is this really a sound deal Ukraine should take?

deleted 1y ago

[deleted]

sunshine-o 1y ago

> European security depends on winning the Ukraine war. This is absurd. Before 2021 and people were told to "care" about it, Ukraine was a "Westworld" type place for Europeans and others. If European security depends on Ukraine, why didn't Europe sent any troops there? This is very new, we fight an existential war now without sending any troops, money should be enough. Anyway the fact is almost 4 years in Ukraine is probably dead demographically. You can't really reboot a country after having so much of its "fighting age" male population dead. Especially because the one who will be left will be deranged, violent and addicted to all sort of things. And then having this type of nightmare on or within your borders is another pandora box. So now whether the EU declares it wins or looses the war, it has lost anyway. On the EU internal politics side, we are literally living in the Star Wars prequel trilogy. No need for much explanations.

petertodd 1y ago
> Anyway the fact is almost 4 years in Ukraine is probably dead demographically. You can't really reboot a country after having so much of its "fighting age" male population dead. You should actually look up the facts before making assumptions. Or, for example, actually visit Ukraine. Currently conscription is between ages 25 and 55; mobilization of younger men is not done specifically to ensure the next generation is not depleted, and men of all ages are fighting. You're actually more likely to get called up if you are in your 30's and 40's than if you are younger. There's about five million males currently in Ukraine in that age range, of which under 100,000 have been killed and under 500,000 wounded. That's just not an existential crisis at all. Germany the country survived WW2, and about half of their male population died in the war. This matches the on-the-ground reality: I've visited plenty of Ukrainian cities during the war, and there are plenty of males of all ages. Including young males. Any crisis they face is the same birthrate crisis that all developed countries face. And hopefully, the psychology of war will help reverse that --- Israel also has a notably high birthrate. > Especially because the one who will be left will be deranged, violent and addicted to all sort of things. I personally know quite a few Ukrainian soldiers who have seen action. They're all well functioning people. Combat when you're on the side of good rather than evil doesn't have the psychological toil people think it does. It's not nothing. But the supermajority of people recover just fine and go on to lead productive lives. An important part of that is recognizing that Ukraine is up against an irredeemably evil enemy. You were killing orcs, not men.