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Europe took PTO after the wall fell, and stayed on it long enough that now a new generation has grown up thinking its the norm. Tech? We have the US's tech. Def

Europe took PTO after the wall fell, and stayed on it long enough that now a new generation has grown up thinking its the norm. Tech? We have the US's tech. Defense? We have the US's defense. Energy? We have Russia's and the US's energy Obviously Europeans don't want to be the US's b*tch, but even more so they seem to want heavy regulations ensuring their right to relax and cripple growth, err, evil corporations.

thrance 1y ago
[flagged]
- Workaccount2 1y ago
  Telling Europeans to develop their own tech is hardly in the interest of US corporations... Europe is on track to slip into stagnation (if it isn't already) and they seem to think that they can regulate/bureaucrat their way out of it ("If companies aren't making money, make it illegal to not make money!" level thinking). Once economic conditions get tight, which will happen on the current trajectory, especially with a bunch of pensioners in the pipeline and not enough young people to fund it[1], the EU will fracture and the resentment and finger pointing will begin. Nationalist energy will explode (which is already forming), and Russia will be licking it's lips. Think of what Europe would be right now if daddy USA didn't bankroll half of Ukraines aid, including tons of USA weapons and tech. Economic faltering will put Europe in either full scale war (who knew forgotten history can repeat), or they will be back at daddy USA's doorstep begging for protection. Or they will need to fill the gaps with AI, which will probably be US tech AI at this point. [1]https://www.cde.ual.es/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Population_projection_Visual_02_1920x1080_V5-100-1.jpg https://www.cde.ual.es/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Population...
- hollerith 1y ago
  Maybe he is trying to understand the world a little better (and not trying to defend anything).
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
outside1234 1y ago
Yes, the reality that China and the US are driving is that you can't take off 5 weeks in the summer, have 42 public holidays a year, only work until 4pm, and not be able to fire underperforming people and hope to be magically be competitive. I know this isn't popular, and I wish it was different too, but you can't have it both ways.
thiago_fm 1y ago
This isn't Europe's fault. But the fact that US's diplomatic policy USED TO make us not want to do it. Europe using US tech was a bonding measure between the two parties. We can quickly and easy build european "FAANG" overnight, even now more with AI search making it easy to replace Google. We even already have it: think Ecosia, Protonmail etc. There are tons of those. The same is for social media. It would be very easy to flip a social media app akin to Instagram, or FB. The issue is getting users and have alignment that this would be the "european version". We never had to do this, or think of it, because US had a very benevolent and good relationship with Europe, and US big tech used to make us feel even more connected.
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  Sorry; it is Europe’s fault. They could have taken the hundreds of billions in savings from not having to fund a defense industry and used that to fund amazing technologies for this moment. Wups
  - bilekas 1y ago
    > Sorry; it is Europe’s fault. Did everyone forget after WW 2 central Europe had to rebuild basically all of its infrastructure ? The hubris in this chat today is deafening.
    - rdm_blackhole 1y ago
      To claim that the EU does not have competitors to AWS or Google Cloud or AWS because it had to rebuild it's countries after the war is more than a stretch. The internet economy started in the early 90s, 45 years after the war ended in Europe. GP is correct the EU rested on it's laurels, it wrongly thought that the US would always be there in case of crisis. This was a big mistake and now the chicken have come home to roost.
      - bilekas 1y ago
        > GP is correct the EU rested on it's laurels, it wrongly thought that the US would always be there in case of crisis. This was a big mistake and now the chicken have come home to roost. The EU didn't rest on it's laurels, it spent and is STILL spending time ensuring no MORE wars happen internally. That involves a LOT of negotiating between countries, cultures and goverments. The US didn't have any of that. Do you know how complicated and long it took to get even Ireland into the EU, even when the UK left, there is so much beuracracy between Ireland and the UK it was one of the blocking points. How, when the EU was an infant in the 90's are we as a block supposed to start throwing investment collectively into a new thing nobody's heard about before, and then convince the newly joined countries, who are struggling to adapt to a Union, balancing individual currencies at the time also. People clearly have absolutely no idea about the history of the EU and Europe in general and therefore should take a step back from giving their opinions as if it's some kind of insight. > It wrongly thought that the US would always be there in case of crisis. This was a big mistake and now the chicken have come home to roost. Again, it was not an assumption, it was an agreement. After WW2. Yet again you're showing either your ignorance or unwillingness to consider what you're saying. [0] https://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/gatt47_e.htm https://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/gatt47_e.htm
bgwalter 1y ago
The EU could defend itself against Russia on its current budget. Germany had to reduce its army as part of the reunification deal and is now criticized for not having a big army. Only France has nuclear weapons and the incentive to spend huge amounts on defense while being dependent on leased and US controlled nukes is not great. Do you prefer that all EU countries get their own nukes? The EU has real tech like ASML, Airbus, Siemens, Alsthom etc. What the US calls "tech" is not regarded as vital in the EU and somewhat belittled. This kind of "tech" is only possible with US hype and massively speculative investments. The US is begging (and blackmailing with tariffs) countries from all over the world to build factories in the US. That doesn't sound like a great success. Energy? The US tries to control all energy choke points of energy flow to the EU. The Nord Stream sabotage was hailed as a great operation, enabling the US to sell overpriced LNG to the EU. The US leased a corridor from Azerbaijan to Turkey to control vast amounts of natural gas from Turkmenistan. A Trump adjacent billionaire floated the idea to buy and revive Nord Stream. What exactly should the EU do? Switch to nuclear energy and buy uranium from Russia like the US does (the US also buys fertilizer)?
- Workaccount2 1y ago
  The EU needs to do the things that it has prided itself on not doing for the last 30 years. That is the fundamental problem, and I don't see how it can change. Germans work 400 hours less per year than Americans. 400! That's 50 days! How do you get people to work 50 more days a year without mass voting to keep (or even "improve") the status quo? And this doesn't even touch on the heavy regulatory side, which just makes the EU a generally unattractive place to invest.
  - bgwalter 1y ago
    Airbus is more profitable than Boeing and has fewer accidents as of late. Maybe you don't mix up bolts in a door if you are more fresh mentally. Companies are free to pay overtime, and the salaries would still be less than in SV. So you could absolutely found a software company in the EU with the same amount of work hours in a competitive manner and still pay less than in the US (under the assumption that the hours are really needed, which I doubt). The real advantage that the US has is that they can more easily exploit users because there are no privacy laws.

thrance 1y ago

[flagged]

Workaccount2 1y ago
Telling Europeans to develop their own tech is hardly in the interest of US corporations... Europe is on track to slip into stagnation (if it isn't already) and they seem to think that they can regulate/bureaucrat their way out of it ("If companies aren't making money, make it illegal to not make money!" level thinking). Once economic conditions get tight, which will happen on the current trajectory, especially with a bunch of pensioners in the pipeline and not enough young people to fund it[1], the EU will fracture and the resentment and finger pointing will begin. Nationalist energy will explode (which is already forming), and Russia will be licking it's lips. Think of what Europe would be right now if daddy USA didn't bankroll half of Ukraines aid, including tons of USA weapons and tech. Economic faltering will put Europe in either full scale war (who knew forgotten history can repeat), or they will be back at daddy USA's doorstep begging for protection. Or they will need to fill the gaps with AI, which will probably be US tech AI at this point. [1]https://www.cde.ual.es/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Population_projection_Visual_02_1920x1080_V5-100-1.jpg https://www.cde.ual.es/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Population...
hollerith 1y ago
Maybe he is trying to understand the world a little better (and not trying to defend anything).
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]

outside1234 1y ago

Yes, the reality that China and the US are driving is that you can't take off 5 weeks in the summer, have 42 public holidays a year, only work until 4pm, and not be able to fire underperforming people and hope to be magically be competitive. I know this isn't popular, and I wish it was different too, but you can't have it both ways.

thiago_fm 1y ago

This isn't Europe's fault. But the fact that US's diplomatic policy USED TO make us not want to do it. Europe using US tech was a bonding measure between the two parties. We can quickly and easy build european "FAANG" overnight, even now more with AI search making it easy to replace Google. We even already have it: think Ecosia, Protonmail etc. There are tons of those. The same is for social media. It would be very easy to flip a social media app akin to Instagram, or FB. The issue is getting users and have alignment that this would be the "european version". We never had to do this, or think of it, because US had a very benevolent and good relationship with Europe, and US big tech used to make us feel even more connected.

mensetmanusman 1y ago
Sorry; it is Europe’s fault. They could have taken the hundreds of billions in savings from not having to fund a defense industry and used that to fund amazing technologies for this moment. Wups
- bilekas 1y ago
  > Sorry; it is Europe’s fault. Did everyone forget after WW 2 central Europe had to rebuild basically all of its infrastructure ? The hubris in this chat today is deafening.
  - rdm_blackhole 1y ago
    To claim that the EU does not have competitors to AWS or Google Cloud or AWS because it had to rebuild it's countries after the war is more than a stretch. The internet economy started in the early 90s, 45 years after the war ended in Europe. GP is correct the EU rested on it's laurels, it wrongly thought that the US would always be there in case of crisis. This was a big mistake and now the chicken have come home to roost.
    - bilekas 1y ago
      > GP is correct the EU rested on it's laurels, it wrongly thought that the US would always be there in case of crisis. This was a big mistake and now the chicken have come home to roost. The EU didn't rest on it's laurels, it spent and is STILL spending time ensuring no MORE wars happen internally. That involves a LOT of negotiating between countries, cultures and goverments. The US didn't have any of that. Do you know how complicated and long it took to get even Ireland into the EU, even when the UK left, there is so much beuracracy between Ireland and the UK it was one of the blocking points. How, when the EU was an infant in the 90's are we as a block supposed to start throwing investment collectively into a new thing nobody's heard about before, and then convince the newly joined countries, who are struggling to adapt to a Union, balancing individual currencies at the time also. People clearly have absolutely no idea about the history of the EU and Europe in general and therefore should take a step back from giving their opinions as if it's some kind of insight. > It wrongly thought that the US would always be there in case of crisis. This was a big mistake and now the chicken have come home to roost. Again, it was not an assumption, it was an agreement. After WW2. Yet again you're showing either your ignorance or unwillingness to consider what you're saying. [0] https://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/gatt47_e.htm https://www.wto.org/english/docs_e/legal_e/gatt47_e.htm

bgwalter 1y ago

The EU could defend itself against Russia on its current budget. Germany had to reduce its army as part of the reunification deal and is now criticized for not having a big army. Only France has nuclear weapons and the incentive to spend huge amounts on defense while being dependent on leased and US controlled nukes is not great. Do you prefer that all EU countries get their own nukes? The EU has real tech like ASML, Airbus, Siemens, Alsthom etc. What the US calls "tech" is not regarded as vital in the EU and somewhat belittled. This kind of "tech" is only possible with US hype and massively speculative investments. The US is begging (and blackmailing with tariffs) countries from all over the world to build factories in the US. That doesn't sound like a great success. Energy? The US tries to control all energy choke points of energy flow to the EU. The Nord Stream sabotage was hailed as a great operation, enabling the US to sell overpriced LNG to the EU. The US leased a corridor from Azerbaijan to Turkey to control vast amounts of natural gas from Turkmenistan. A Trump adjacent billionaire floated the idea to buy and revive Nord Stream. What exactly should the EU do? Switch to nuclear energy and buy uranium from Russia like the US does (the US also buys fertilizer)?

Workaccount2 1y ago
The EU needs to do the things that it has prided itself on not doing for the last 30 years. That is the fundamental problem, and I don't see how it can change. Germans work 400 hours less per year than Americans. 400! That's 50 days! How do you get people to work 50 more days a year without mass voting to keep (or even "improve") the status quo? And this doesn't even touch on the heavy regulatory side, which just makes the EU a generally unattractive place to invest.
- bgwalter 1y ago
  Airbus is more profitable than Boeing and has fewer accidents as of late. Maybe you don't mix up bolts in a door if you are more fresh mentally. Companies are free to pay overtime, and the salaries would still be less than in SV. So you could absolutely found a software company in the EU with the same amount of work hours in a competitive manner and still pay less than in the US (under the assumption that the hours are really needed, which I doubt). The real advantage that the US has is that they can more easily exploit users because there are no privacy laws.