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Majority in EU's biggest states believes bloc 'sold out' in US tariff deal

70 points by belter 1y ago

jleyank 1y ago
Because they did. The question is whether that was just bad optics or a bad deal. Look for follow through.
graemep 1y ago
It might be less beneficial than the previous position, but nonetheless more beneficial than the alternative. If the deal was the best available then its not "selling out", its being realistic.
- lilwobbles 1y ago
  Trump has backed down on most of the outrageous tariffs (200% tarriff on China). The alternative was a false reality that the EU believed because they are scared of Trump and bad at negotiating. I'm glad the American people at least know how weak the EU is, we should elect someone next time that will bring those tariffs up to 100%, and the EU will have to take it because it's better than a 200% tariff alternative. That's just being realistic, right?
  - rsynnott 1y ago
    This is a rather confused view of the situation. 30% tariffs on EU imports would be very bad for _the US_. Trump tends to present trade as a zero sum game, but it very much isn’t; outside of limited scenarios (generally developing countries protecting otherwise unviable local industry with targeted tariffs), tariffs generally hurt both sides.
    - graemep 1y ago
      Trump may present trade imbalances as a zero sum game, I am pretty sure he does not believe it. The real thinking is that being a net importer gives you more negotiating power so you can use that to get a better deal. its well worth looking at what people like Miran and Bessent said (before they were in government) to see what is driving all this.
  - graemep 1y ago
    As far as I know (am I mistaken?) the US reduced tariffs to 10% in return for China reducing tariffs to 10%, and reducing restrictions on the exports of rare earths. That sounds more like China backed down than the US did. The EU is a lot weaker than China. China dominates critical areas of manufacturing, and does not have the level of dependence Europe (non-EU as well) has on the US - I hardly need remind people here of the dependence in IT systems.
    - stubish 1y ago
      China put retaliatory tariffs in place and placed restrictions on the exports of rare earths, calling the US bluff and forcing them to negotiate down to where things stand today.
  - Phelinofist 1y ago
    Man, you are really butthurt about the EU, see also your comment on the Mistral/ASML post
- nwellnhof 1y ago
  That's what Europeans tell themselves, but showing weakness just sets them up for more humiliation.
  - A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
    I see no benefit in ginning up tensions for myself, but I accept that there are power centers that do benefit from it. In a very practical sense, having a slightly less bad situation is better than a bad one. I could offer a real life anecdote, but I am not certain where you are going with this conversation.
    - AnimalMuppet 1y ago
      See https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poem/poems_danegeld.htm https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poem/poems_danegeld.htm Trump is "making deals" by making the other option worse. But the problem is, if you take the current best option, that may not be the deal for long. He may do it again... and again... "I am altering the deal. Pray that I do not alter it further." When dealing with someone like this, don't play the game the first time.
      - A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
        I don't disagree. It is a reasonable and forward looking consideration. That said, it may be a little late to do that. Not to mention, for all the talk about how Americans being unable to handle hardship, higher prices and whatnot.. I am reasonably certain that this extends to most of the '1st world'.
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]
  - mensetmanusman 1y ago
    This is good, once you realize you are weak and accept it, hopefully folks will sit down and have a plan to get stronger. It’s better than pretending for decades and then getting wiped out. This was always going to happen eventually.
- coliveira 1y ago
  Europe just fell for Trump's oldest trick: ask for the world and get a large concession in return. Doesn't anyone in EU know how to deal with con men like Trump? Look at other countries like China and Brazil. They're not conceding anything.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- dragonelite 1y ago
  Yeah but EU leadership did everything in their powers to work themselves into these set of cards. I would bet Russian political elites are laughing their asses of because they were successful in their pivot to Asia and away from Europe. Into a westless world order, where they are actually sitting at the table and are not part of the menu.
- surgical_fire 1y ago
  It was a ridiculous capitulation. The bright side is that key points of this deal are unlikely to go through EU parliament, essentially killing it in its inception.
Sol- 1y ago
People are clueless about economics, so such polls are irrelevant. It can still have been a bad deal, of course, who knows, given the specifics of trade deals with Trump are ever changing. Ultimately it just reflects the EU's largely self-inflicted economic weakness.
moi2388 1y ago
I don’t believe it. Part of the deal is that EU has to buy certain amounts of LNG and weapons from the US. That sounds like a win for the US, but the EU wanted to secure this anyway, to build up defence, send equipment to Ukraine, and reduce dependence on Russian gas.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- coliveira 1y ago
  Their priorities were already incorrect since the beginning. Trump only doubled down on that.
- romanovcode 1y ago
  > EU wanted to secure this anyway Sure, that's why Germany was building NordStream-2. EU secretly just wants to buy Russian gas because it's cheap and easy. I guarantee ~5 years after the war is over new deals will be made in place to start pumping gas from the biggest gas station in the world which is right next to EU.
  - bilekas 1y ago
    > EU secretly just wants to buy Russian gas because it's cheap and easy. It's no secret, reliable cheap source of the most important resource on the planet right now is essential for any economy today. What do you expect us to do? Please enlighten me. Buy from ships for much higher prices because the US doesn't like Russia ? There's a war on now and we are reducing our dependency greatly, did we get complacent, absolutely. Are we working towards getting away from it, absolutely. Your attitude is just negative for negatives sake.
  - moi2388 1y ago
    No, back then the EU still thought trade with Russia was the best course for peace. They wanted their cheap oil and gas. Then the war started and nordstream got blown up, so now the EU looks to other sources of LNG. Meaning they require this from the US, so securing this is a win.
cjfd 1y ago
"Benefit the US". Nonsense. Trade barriers hurt both sides. And if the US wants to lower its trade deficit and/or bring back manufacturing some things that actually make economic sense are: stop being the reserve currency of the world, raise your interest rates, and start running a government surplus instead of deficit. Ah... you notice that all of these things are the opposite of what the idiot in charge of the US is actually doing. Well, the shortened summary of the whole thing is that the US is the very curious case of a superpower attempting to become a third world country. So who is actually winning here? Well, if the rest of the world decides to start doing some more free trade, the one losing is at the least very clear. You know, trump is all about optics. If you have no idea what is actually going on it may well look like the mascot is the most important person on the field. Trump has made it its life purpose to be a mascot. In the meantime the collapse is brewing in the back.
- A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
  I think part of the issue is that "Benefit the US" heavily confuses the beneficiary. Is the the organization that identifies by the flag and holds the land? Is it its various owners? Is is the government? And if it is, which part thereof? Is the population? When? Now? In the potential future? None of this is specified -- on purpose -- to muddle the waters, because the reader will read into it what they want to read.
- coliveira 1y ago
  The US is Argentina of the 21st century. They're adopting all policies that will make this a 3rd world country.
- alistairSH 1y ago
  ...the US is the very curious case of a superpower attempting to become a third world country... The really sad part... Argentina already went down this path with Peronism. They weren't a super-power, but they were economically very successful. And then they weren't.
  - js8 1y ago
    Can you support this claim? From cursory reading (and looking at GDP per capita), the failure was of neoliberal policies (which caused several massive crises), not peronism.
draw_down 1y ago
[dead]
mdemare 1y ago
Whatever the economic merits and demerits of this deal, politically it's a disaster, as this article indicates. There wasn't even an attempt to sell this to the public. But as there are no elections until 2028, I expect major changes in strategy in a year or so, otherwise the center-right parties in charge now will be wiped out in favor of the anti-American factions of the far right and far left. My suspicion is that there's a quid-pro-quo regarding Ukraine. Economically, the EU is in a strong position, but militarily, a mercurial US has the EU over the barrel due to the Ukraine war. I predict that Europe's notoriously hard-nosed negotiators (Brexit) will ramp up the pressure as the midterms get closer and if the situation in Ukraine improves.
- simion314 1y ago
  My guess the negotiators had somehow the information that the tariffs will soon be declared illegal so would be smart to let the narcisist think he won, I hope I am right and there is still rule of law in USA.
  - stubish 1y ago
    The negotiators agreed to demands under threat of tariffs that they believed would soon disappear? That makes no sense.
    - simion314 1y ago
      >The negotiators agreed to demands under threat of tariffs that they believed would soon disappear? That makes no sense. It buys time, the negotiators also have no power to force each country to implement the stuff , or make the agreement some law. It would make sense to assume illegal tariffs will be declared illegal with 95% of the chance and just buy time and let the nariisit idiot think he won and go ahead and fuck with someone else for now.
- thrance 1y ago
  Is there such a thing as the "anti American far right"? As far as I can tell, all these wannabe despots are buddy-buddy with Trump, Musk and MAGA in general.
Workaccount2 1y ago
Europe took PTO after the wall fell, and stayed on it long enough that now a new generation has grown up thinking its the norm. Tech? We have the US's tech. Defense? We have the US's defense. Energy? We have Russia's and the US's energy Obviously Europeans don't want to be the US's b*tch, but even more so they seem to want heavy regulations ensuring their right to relax and cripple growth, err, evil corporations.
- thrance 1y ago
  [flagged]
  - Workaccount2 1y ago
    Telling Europeans to develop their own tech is hardly in the interest of US corporations... Europe is on track to slip into stagnation (if it isn't already) and they seem to think that they can regulate/bureaucrat their way out of it ("If companies aren't making money, make it illegal to not make money!" level thinking). Once economic conditions get tight, which will happen on the current trajectory, especially with a bunch of pensioners in the pipeline and not enough young people to fund it[1], the EU will fracture and the resentment and finger pointing will begin. Nationalist energy will explode (which is already forming), and Russia will be licking it's lips. Think of what Europe would be right now if daddy USA didn't bankroll half of Ukraines aid, including tons of USA weapons and tech. Economic faltering will put Europe in either full scale war (who knew forgotten history can repeat), or they will be back at daddy USA's doorstep begging for protection. Or they will need to fill the gaps with AI, which will probably be US tech AI at this point. [1]https://www.cde.ual.es/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Population_projection_Visual_02_1920x1080_V5-100-1.jpg https://www.cde.ual.es/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Population...
  - hollerith 1y ago
    Maybe he is trying to understand the world a little better (and not trying to defend anything).
    - deleted 1y ago
      [deleted]
rdm_blackhole 1y ago
It's simply another nail in the coffin of the narrative that the EU countries need the "EU" to survive. The EU was sold as tool that would bring prosperity to the EU countries and this is less and less the case as the years go by. Sure, you have a few bright spots here and there but those are few and far between. Spain, Italy, Greece and the other sick "countries" of Europe were sacrificed in the 2010s to save the Euro and now France and Germany are going through some tough soul-searching. Then there is the the growth of many Euro septic parties throughout Europe which are gathering steam year after year. The EU needs to reform itself very quickly because for a lot of people, the question that is being asked is: do we really need it?
- ponector 1y ago
  UK is much better without EU. Or actually it is not? Countries don't need EU to survive, but growth and development is better in the union. Try to travel somewhere outside the EU. Get a visa, exchange money, get health insurance, get sim for roaming. Everyone is so accustomed to benefits of the union that forgot how it was without it.
vintermann 1y ago
They think things will go back to normal. Once/if they do, they think (probably correctly) that the "normal" rulers will reward those who deferred to the crown despite disliking the one who wore it. That's the essence of normalcy to them. They cannot imagine any alternative to the US foreign department dictated world order - or they just don't want to imagine it. They rose in a system where imagination in foreign policy matters -- well, if they had it, they wouldn't have risen to the top in this system. The height of irresponsibility to them is to imagine something outside the present order (such as Varoufakis making practical plans for leaving the Euro during the Greek debt crisis). The very action of imagining things threatens the stability which is the base of everything they actually value, which is little more than peer prestige and comfort for themselves.
- bilekas 1y ago
  Wow there is a lot to unpack here.. Firstly don't speak as if 'they' in some absolute consensus please, in the EU we are nothing if opinionated about our own interests, hence the amount of bureaucracy and the length of time it takes to enact certain things. > They cannot imagine any alternative to the US foreign department dictated world order - or they just don't want to imagine it. Dictated or not, you're missing the main point that we are 'aligned'. Why would we not embrace an open and free market. That's what works for the EU itself and so when a world leader also shared the same policies, naturally we would embrace that and vice versa. It's not some dictator sitting in the US, a good example of this are how many products are not allowed to be sold in the EU from the US due to health risks we asses as unacceptable. We decide that, free market. > The height of irresponsibility to them is to imagine something outside the present order (such as Varoufakis making practical plans for leaving the Euro during the Greek debt crisis) Again you are assuming that mitigations and considerations haven't been considered, there are MANY provisions for leaving the EU, but why would we focus primarily on those situations when we as a union have a parliment to come together and work together. That is always the priority. We don't have one overarching federal system. We have a collection trading block who internally are independant and externally we can negotiate trade deals as one union, meaning better deals. That's it. > The very action of imagining things threatens the stability which is the base of everything they actually value, which is little more than peer prestige and comfort for themselves. This makes no sense and it's purely conjecture. Is the EU perfect, no, does anyone think it is, nope. Is it constantly in flux to improve, absolutely.
mensetmanusman 1y ago
The EU has benefitted trillions of euros over the decades by leaning on the US for defense spending and subsidizing amazing healthcare benefits for their citizens. Their gamble did not pay off because they mis-underestimated Russia. Now the check has come due, but it was inevitable assuming Russia was always going to do this. Regardless, this is the result of the Russian invasion.
- bilekas 1y ago
  > Their gamble did not pay off because they mis-underestimated Russia. Like all economies we depend primarily on fossil fuels. It's unfortunate that we can get it ridiculously cheap from Russia but that's the free market. We are working more than anyone else to remove all dependency, but don't start pointing fingers at us just because we purchased the cheapest fossil fuel we could for ourselves. We don't all have the luxury of invading oil rich countries, or have massive reserves ourselves.
- humanfromearth 1y ago
  EU is a big customers of lots of stuff from US military vendors so US didn't exactly give things for free to the EU either. Should have EU relied less on US and actually spend those agreed upon 2%+ of GDP like Poland, Finland and others have and be self reliant? Yes. Very much so. Perun has an interesting video about it EU reliance of US military support: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFoJGHZEqAk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFoJGHZEqAk
teekert 1y ago
And we still don't even know what we paid for the COVID vaccines. They're about to roll out ChatControl with exemptions for themselves, while they're using Signal with disappearing messages despite transparency of government rules... I'm not feeling a lot of love for our leadership recently tbh.
grim_io 1y ago
Yes we did. Still, it is the lesser of the possible evils. Trump needs to be "managed" until Russia goes back to pretend to play nicely with the European neighborhood.
derelicta 1y ago
Europeans finally understanding what imperialism feels like to the rest of the world. Perhaps we will even grow a spine or develop empathy, hopefully sooner rather than later.
- hulitu 1y ago
  > Perhaps we will even grow a spine don't hold your breath. /s We are building amoebas, with US technology made in China. We have a looong way to spines.
throawaywpg 1y ago
Great. Now where am I going to move to avoid US food???
a0-prw 1y ago
Will the US accept a nuclear apocalypse on itself by entering a conventional war with Russia over East European conflicts. No.

70 points by belter 1y ago

Because they did. The question is whether that was just bad optics or a bad deal. Look for follow through.

It might be less beneficial than the previous position, but nonetheless more beneficial than the alternative. If the deal was the best available then its not "selling out", its being realistic.

lilwobbles 1y ago
Trump has backed down on most of the outrageous tariffs (200% tarriff on China). The alternative was a false reality that the EU believed because they are scared of Trump and bad at negotiating. I'm glad the American people at least know how weak the EU is, we should elect someone next time that will bring those tariffs up to 100%, and the EU will have to take it because it's better than a 200% tariff alternative. That's just being realistic, right?
- rsynnott 1y ago
  This is a rather confused view of the situation. 30% tariffs on EU imports would be very bad for _the US_. Trump tends to present trade as a zero sum game, but it very much isn’t; outside of limited scenarios (generally developing countries protecting otherwise unviable local industry with targeted tariffs), tariffs generally hurt both sides.
  - graemep 1y ago
    Trump may present trade imbalances as a zero sum game, I am pretty sure he does not believe it. The real thinking is that being a net importer gives you more negotiating power so you can use that to get a better deal. its well worth looking at what people like Miran and Bessent said (before they were in government) to see what is driving all this.
- graemep 1y ago
  As far as I know (am I mistaken?) the US reduced tariffs to 10% in return for China reducing tariffs to 10%, and reducing restrictions on the exports of rare earths. That sounds more like China backed down than the US did. The EU is a lot weaker than China. China dominates critical areas of manufacturing, and does not have the level of dependence Europe (non-EU as well) has on the US - I hardly need remind people here of the dependence in IT systems.
  - stubish 1y ago
    China put retaliatory tariffs in place and placed restrictions on the exports of rare earths, calling the US bluff and forcing them to negotiate down to where things stand today.
- Phelinofist 1y ago
  Man, you are really butthurt about the EU, see also your comment on the Mistral/ASML post
nwellnhof 1y ago
That's what Europeans tell themselves, but showing weakness just sets them up for more humiliation.
- A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
  I see no benefit in ginning up tensions for myself, but I accept that there are power centers that do benefit from it. In a very practical sense, having a slightly less bad situation is better than a bad one. I could offer a real life anecdote, but I am not certain where you are going with this conversation.
  - AnimalMuppet 1y ago
    See https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poem/poems_danegeld.htm https://www.kiplingsociety.co.uk/poem/poems_danegeld.htm Trump is "making deals" by making the other option worse. But the problem is, if you take the current best option, that may not be the deal for long. He may do it again... and again... "I am altering the deal. Pray that I do not alter it further." When dealing with someone like this, don't play the game the first time.
    - A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
      I don't disagree. It is a reasonable and forward looking consideration. That said, it may be a little late to do that. Not to mention, for all the talk about how Americans being unable to handle hardship, higher prices and whatnot.. I am reasonably certain that this extends to most of the '1st world'.
- deleted 1y ago
  [deleted]
- mensetmanusman 1y ago
  This is good, once you realize you are weak and accept it, hopefully folks will sit down and have a plan to get stronger. It’s better than pretending for decades and then getting wiped out. This was always going to happen eventually.
coliveira 1y ago
Europe just fell for Trump's oldest trick: ask for the world and get a large concession in return. Doesn't anyone in EU know how to deal with con men like Trump? Look at other countries like China and Brazil. They're not conceding anything.
deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
dragonelite 1y ago
Yeah but EU leadership did everything in their powers to work themselves into these set of cards. I would bet Russian political elites are laughing their asses of because they were successful in their pivot to Asia and away from Europe. Into a westless world order, where they are actually sitting at the table and are not part of the menu.
surgical_fire 1y ago
It was a ridiculous capitulation. The bright side is that key points of this deal are unlikely to go through EU parliament, essentially killing it in its inception.

Sol- 1y ago

People are clueless about economics, so such polls are irrelevant. It can still have been a bad deal, of course, who knows, given the specifics of trade deals with Trump are ever changing. Ultimately it just reflects the EU's largely self-inflicted economic weakness.

moi2388 1y ago

I don’t believe it. Part of the deal is that EU has to buy certain amounts of LNG and weapons from the US. That sounds like a win for the US, but the EU wanted to secure this anyway, to build up defence, send equipment to Ukraine, and reduce dependence on Russian gas.

deleted 1y ago
[deleted]
coliveira 1y ago
Their priorities were already incorrect since the beginning. Trump only doubled down on that.
romanovcode 1y ago
> EU wanted to secure this anyway Sure, that's why Germany was building NordStream-2. EU secretly just wants to buy Russian gas because it's cheap and easy. I guarantee ~5 years after the war is over new deals will be made in place to start pumping gas from the biggest gas station in the world which is right next to EU.
- bilekas 1y ago
  > EU secretly just wants to buy Russian gas because it's cheap and easy. It's no secret, reliable cheap source of the most important resource on the planet right now is essential for any economy today. What do you expect us to do? Please enlighten me. Buy from ships for much higher prices because the US doesn't like Russia ? There's a war on now and we are reducing our dependency greatly, did we get complacent, absolutely. Are we working towards getting away from it, absolutely. Your attitude is just negative for negatives sake.
- moi2388 1y ago
  No, back then the EU still thought trade with Russia was the best course for peace. They wanted their cheap oil and gas. Then the war started and nordstream got blown up, so now the EU looks to other sources of LNG. Meaning they require this from the US, so securing this is a win.

cjfd 1y ago

"Benefit the US". Nonsense. Trade barriers hurt both sides. And if the US wants to lower its trade deficit and/or bring back manufacturing some things that actually make economic sense are: stop being the reserve currency of the world, raise your interest rates, and start running a government surplus instead of deficit. Ah... you notice that all of these things are the opposite of what the idiot in charge of the US is actually doing. Well, the shortened summary of the whole thing is that the US is the very curious case of a superpower attempting to become a third world country. So who is actually winning here? Well, if the rest of the world decides to start doing some more free trade, the one losing is at the least very clear. You know, trump is all about optics. If you have no idea what is actually going on it may well look like the mascot is the most important person on the field. Trump has made it its life purpose to be a mascot. In the meantime the collapse is brewing in the back.

A4ET8a8uTh0_v2 1y ago
I think part of the issue is that "Benefit the US" heavily confuses the beneficiary. Is the the organization that identifies by the flag and holds the land? Is it its various owners? Is is the government? And if it is, which part thereof? Is the population? When? Now? In the potential future? None of this is specified -- on purpose -- to muddle the waters, because the reader will read into it what they want to read.
coliveira 1y ago
The US is Argentina of the 21st century. They're adopting all policies that will make this a 3rd world country.
alistairSH 1y ago
...the US is the very curious case of a superpower attempting to become a third world country... The really sad part... Argentina already went down this path with Peronism. They weren't a super-power, but they were economically very successful. And then they weren't.
- js8 1y ago
  Can you support this claim? From cursory reading (and looking at GDP per capita), the failure was of neoliberal policies (which caused several massive crises), not peronism.

draw_down 1y ago

[dead]

mdemare 1y ago

Whatever the economic merits and demerits of this deal, politically it's a disaster, as this article indicates. There wasn't even an attempt to sell this to the public. But as there are no elections until 2028, I expect major changes in strategy in a year or so, otherwise the center-right parties in charge now will be wiped out in favor of the anti-American factions of the far right and far left. My suspicion is that there's a quid-pro-quo regarding Ukraine. Economically, the EU is in a strong position, but militarily, a mercurial US has the EU over the barrel due to the Ukraine war. I predict that Europe's notoriously hard-nosed negotiators (Brexit) will ramp up the pressure as the midterms get closer and if the situation in Ukraine improves.

simion314 1y ago
My guess the negotiators had somehow the information that the tariffs will soon be declared illegal so would be smart to let the narcisist think he won, I hope I am right and there is still rule of law in USA.
- stubish 1y ago
  The negotiators agreed to demands under threat of tariffs that they believed would soon disappear? That makes no sense.
  - simion314 1y ago
    >The negotiators agreed to demands under threat of tariffs that they believed would soon disappear? That makes no sense. It buys time, the negotiators also have no power to force each country to implement the stuff , or make the agreement some law. It would make sense to assume illegal tariffs will be declared illegal with 95% of the chance and just buy time and let the nariisit idiot think he won and go ahead and fuck with someone else for now.
thrance 1y ago
Is there such a thing as the "anti American far right"? As far as I can tell, all these wannabe despots are buddy-buddy with Trump, Musk and MAGA in general.

Workaccount2 1y ago

Europe took PTO after the wall fell, and stayed on it long enough that now a new generation has grown up thinking its the norm. Tech? We have the US's tech. Defense? We have the US's defense. Energy? We have Russia's and the US's energy Obviously Europeans don't want to be the US's b*tch, but even more so they seem to want heavy regulations ensuring their right to relax and cripple growth, err, evil corporations.

thrance 1y ago
[flagged]
- Workaccount2 1y ago
  Telling Europeans to develop their own tech is hardly in the interest of US corporations... Europe is on track to slip into stagnation (if it isn't already) and they seem to think that they can regulate/bureaucrat their way out of it ("If companies aren't making money, make it illegal to not make money!" level thinking). Once economic conditions get tight, which will happen on the current trajectory, especially with a bunch of pensioners in the pipeline and not enough young people to fund it[1], the EU will fracture and the resentment and finger pointing will begin. Nationalist energy will explode (which is already forming), and Russia will be licking it's lips. Think of what Europe would be right now if daddy USA didn't bankroll half of Ukraines aid, including tons of USA weapons and tech. Economic faltering will put Europe in either full scale war (who knew forgotten history can repeat), or they will be back at daddy USA's doorstep begging for protection. Or they will need to fill the gaps with AI, which will probably be US tech AI at this point. [1]https://www.cde.ual.es/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Population_projection_Visual_02_1920x1080_V5-100-1.jpg https://www.cde.ual.es/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/Population...
- hollerith 1y ago
  Maybe he is trying to understand the world a little better (and not trying to defend anything).
  - deleted 1y ago
    [deleted]

rdm_blackhole 1y ago

It's simply another nail in the coffin of the narrative that the EU countries need the "EU" to survive. The EU was sold as tool that would bring prosperity to the EU countries and this is less and less the case as the years go by. Sure, you have a few bright spots here and there but those are few and far between. Spain, Italy, Greece and the other sick "countries" of Europe were sacrificed in the 2010s to save the Euro and now France and Germany are going through some tough soul-searching. Then there is the the growth of many Euro septic parties throughout Europe which are gathering steam year after year. The EU needs to reform itself very quickly because for a lot of people, the question that is being asked is: do we really need it?

ponector 1y ago
UK is much better without EU. Or actually it is not? Countries don't need EU to survive, but growth and development is better in the union. Try to travel somewhere outside the EU. Get a visa, exchange money, get health insurance, get sim for roaming. Everyone is so accustomed to benefits of the union that forgot how it was without it.

vintermann 1y ago

They think things will go back to normal. Once/if they do, they think (probably correctly) that the "normal" rulers will reward those who deferred to the crown despite disliking the one who wore it. That's the essence of normalcy to them. They cannot imagine any alternative to the US foreign department dictated world order - or they just don't want to imagine it. They rose in a system where imagination in foreign policy matters -- well, if they had it, they wouldn't have risen to the top in this system. The height of irresponsibility to them is to imagine something outside the present order (such as Varoufakis making practical plans for leaving the Euro during the Greek debt crisis). The very action of imagining things threatens the stability which is the base of everything they actually value, which is little more than peer prestige and comfort for themselves.

bilekas 1y ago
Wow there is a lot to unpack here.. Firstly don't speak as if 'they' in some absolute consensus please, in the EU we are nothing if opinionated about our own interests, hence the amount of bureaucracy and the length of time it takes to enact certain things. > They cannot imagine any alternative to the US foreign department dictated world order - or they just don't want to imagine it. Dictated or not, you're missing the main point that we are 'aligned'. Why would we not embrace an open and free market. That's what works for the EU itself and so when a world leader also shared the same policies, naturally we would embrace that and vice versa. It's not some dictator sitting in the US, a good example of this are how many products are not allowed to be sold in the EU from the US due to health risks we asses as unacceptable. We decide that, free market. > The height of irresponsibility to them is to imagine something outside the present order (such as Varoufakis making practical plans for leaving the Euro during the Greek debt crisis) Again you are assuming that mitigations and considerations haven't been considered, there are MANY provisions for leaving the EU, but why would we focus primarily on those situations when we as a union have a parliment to come together and work together. That is always the priority. We don't have one overarching federal system. We have a collection trading block who internally are independant and externally we can negotiate trade deals as one union, meaning better deals. That's it. > The very action of imagining things threatens the stability which is the base of everything they actually value, which is little more than peer prestige and comfort for themselves. This makes no sense and it's purely conjecture. Is the EU perfect, no, does anyone think it is, nope. Is it constantly in flux to improve, absolutely.

mensetmanusman 1y ago

The EU has benefitted trillions of euros over the decades by leaning on the US for defense spending and subsidizing amazing healthcare benefits for their citizens. Their gamble did not pay off because they mis-underestimated Russia. Now the check has come due, but it was inevitable assuming Russia was always going to do this. Regardless, this is the result of the Russian invasion.

bilekas 1y ago
> Their gamble did not pay off because they mis-underestimated Russia. Like all economies we depend primarily on fossil fuels. It's unfortunate that we can get it ridiculously cheap from Russia but that's the free market. We are working more than anyone else to remove all dependency, but don't start pointing fingers at us just because we purchased the cheapest fossil fuel we could for ourselves. We don't all have the luxury of invading oil rich countries, or have massive reserves ourselves.
humanfromearth 1y ago
EU is a big customers of lots of stuff from US military vendors so US didn't exactly give things for free to the EU either. Should have EU relied less on US and actually spend those agreed upon 2%+ of GDP like Poland, Finland and others have and be self reliant? Yes. Very much so. Perun has an interesting video about it EU reliance of US military support: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFoJGHZEqAk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFoJGHZEqAk

teekert 1y ago

And we still don't even know what we paid for the COVID vaccines. They're about to roll out ChatControl with exemptions for themselves, while they're using Signal with disappearing messages despite transparency of government rules... I'm not feeling a lot of love for our leadership recently tbh.

grim_io 1y ago

Yes we did. Still, it is the lesser of the possible evils. Trump needs to be "managed" until Russia goes back to pretend to play nicely with the European neighborhood.

derelicta 1y ago

Europeans finally understanding what imperialism feels like to the rest of the world. Perhaps we will even grow a spine or develop empathy, hopefully sooner rather than later.

hulitu 1y ago
> Perhaps we will even grow a spine don't hold your breath. /s We are building amoebas, with US technology made in China. We have a looong way to spines.

throawaywpg 1y ago

Great. Now where am I going to move to avoid US food???

a0-prw 1y ago

Will the US accept a nuclear apocalypse on itself by entering a conventional war with Russia over East European conflicts. No.