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You could say the same argument about food, but the system of privately owned farms moving food via privately owned logistics companies to privately owned groce

You could say the same argument about food, but the system of privately owned farms moving food via privately owned logistics companies to privately owned grocery shops works very well. Yes, it's the responsibility of the state that it's citizens can acquire their needs, but that doesn't mean it has to be government owned.

graemep 1y ago
The difference being that farmers and logistics companies and shops work in a competitive market where as water in a natural monopoly. The system does not work perfectly though. In the UK big supermarkets have monopsony power over farmers and smaller farmers are being squeezed out by big farm owners (who tend to have lower standards, especially of animal welfare).
bilekas 1y ago
> Yes, it's the responsibility of the state that it's citizens can acquire their needs, but that doesn't mean it has to be government owned. Absolutely agree, it may not need to be government owned, however it should absolutely be government funded.
Ericson2314 1y ago
Giving how much subsidies farmers get, and they still whine all the fucking time, I would gladly nationalize them all. Corn ethanal? Gone. Crazy EU stuff? Gone.
- dukeyukey 1y ago
  Collectivised agriculture has gone badly enough often enough that I'm wouldn't risk trying it.
  - juuular 1y ago
    This seems to be working well and is resilient www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDnenjIdnnE
  - Ericson2314 1y ago
    I don't think the Soviet and Chinese examples are very relevant, because dealing with a bunch of peasents is extraordinary different from dealing with an agricultural sector that is already industrialized. Because the massive subsidies we already have the incentive problems too, so it's not like that would be a new can of worms either.
- andruby 1y ago
  Just trying to learn more. What "Crazy EU stuff" are being farmed at the moment?
- AngryData 1y ago
  Subsidies are certainly mismanaged in numerous ways but they are the only alternative to the granary system to maintain reliable and stable food production. We used the granary system for thousands of years across the world and while it kind of worked, it also resulted in numerous famines across every culture.
Cthulhu_ 1y ago
> the system of privately owned farms moving food via privately owned logistics companies to privately owned grocery shops works very well. Does it? Food prices are up, millions of people rely on food banks [0], etc. This may not be entirely down to farms or the governmental oversight thereof, but food security is not a given. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/09/britons-vulnerable-reliance-food-banks-research-finds https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/09/britons-vuln...

graemep 1y ago

The difference being that farmers and logistics companies and shops work in a competitive market where as water in a natural monopoly. The system does not work perfectly though. In the UK big supermarkets have monopsony power over farmers and smaller farmers are being squeezed out by big farm owners (who tend to have lower standards, especially of animal welfare).

bilekas 1y ago

> Yes, it's the responsibility of the state that it's citizens can acquire their needs, but that doesn't mean it has to be government owned. Absolutely agree, it may not need to be government owned, however it should absolutely be government funded.

Ericson2314 1y ago

Giving how much subsidies farmers get, and they still whine all the fucking time, I would gladly nationalize them all. Corn ethanal? Gone. Crazy EU stuff? Gone.

dukeyukey 1y ago
Collectivised agriculture has gone badly enough often enough that I'm wouldn't risk trying it.
- juuular 1y ago
  This seems to be working well and is resilient www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDnenjIdnnE
- Ericson2314 1y ago
  I don't think the Soviet and Chinese examples are very relevant, because dealing with a bunch of peasents is extraordinary different from dealing with an agricultural sector that is already industrialized. Because the massive subsidies we already have the incentive problems too, so it's not like that would be a new can of worms either.
andruby 1y ago
Just trying to learn more. What "Crazy EU stuff" are being farmed at the moment?
AngryData 1y ago
Subsidies are certainly mismanaged in numerous ways but they are the only alternative to the granary system to maintain reliable and stable food production. We used the granary system for thousands of years across the world and while it kind of worked, it also resulted in numerous famines across every culture.

Cthulhu_ 1y ago

> the system of privately owned farms moving food via privately owned logistics companies to privately owned grocery shops works very well. Does it? Food prices are up, millions of people rely on food banks [0], etc. This may not be entirely down to farms or the governmental oversight thereof, but food security is not a given. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/09/britons-vulnerable-reliance-food-banks-research-finds https://www.theguardian.com/society/2024/oct/09/britons-vuln...