4 ms·

It's the problem with ideological thinking - from what I can see some privatisations worked well (e.g. Rolls Royce) and others went terribly (rail, water in Eng

It's the problem with ideological thinking - from what I can see some privatisations worked well (e.g. Rolls Royce) and others went terribly (rail, water in England) - unfortunately they tend to get treated as all bad or all good.

graemep 1y ago
I disagree about rail - nationalised British Rail was pretty terrible, had more accidents per distance travelled, and carried far fewer people. It think it made little difference. Nationalised water in Scotland is no better than privatised in England and Wales, and has a higher rate of sewer leaks: https://theferret.scot/scotland-behind-england-sewage-leaks/ https://theferret.scot/scotland-behind-england-sewage-leaks/
- teamonkey 1y ago
  From the same site: https://theferret.scot/water-pollution-scotland-england-mostly-false/ https://theferret.scot/water-pollution-scotland-england-most... One thing of note about Scotland is that water is free (i.e. paid for by taxes) there.
  - arethuza 1y ago
    It's not free - there are explicit charges for it attached to our council taxes?
    - teamonkey 1y ago
      I literally said “I.e. paid for by taxes” :) But it’s unmetered, unlike most of the UK, and, as the other poster mentioned, cheaper.
      - arethuza 1y ago
        Nitpick: "Water and waste water charges are set by Scottish Water and billed alongside council tax." They aren't a tax themselves. https://www.fife.gov.uk/kb/docs/articles/housing/council-tax/council-tax-bands-and-charges https://www.fife.gov.uk/kb/docs/articles/housing/council-tax...
      - graemep 1y ago
        Unmetered water is still common in the rest of the UK. There is a gradual move to metering. I think there is a good argument for metering water - it provides an incentive not to waste it, and potable water is expensive to supply and has a significant environmental impact. It does need to be affordable even to people on the lowest incomes though.
  - JetSetWilly 1y ago
    It isn't free but it is less expensive. In fact in Scotland the annual water bill averages to £490 compared to £603 in England. This is despite a lower population density (which means more infra required per person comparatively). So despite the best efforts of critics, they can't really show that Scottish water is any worse in terms of sewage outflows etc - if anything it is marginally better on that metric, and significantly cheaper to run. And the actual water quality is good, although that has a lot to do with incidental geography. Why would I want it privatised?
    - teamonkey 1y ago
      I fully agree. Moreover, it’s clear that Scottish Water actually has (if slowly) moved towards improving infrastructure and sewerage monitoring since that 2021 post I replied to, unlike a number of English water companies.
graemep 1y ago
I entirely agree with you about ideological thinking. We need a pragmatic approach, and a willingness to think through complex problems.
mr_toad 1y ago
The privatisations that go bad are usually monopolistic.

graemep 1y ago

I disagree about rail - nationalised British Rail was pretty terrible, had more accidents per distance travelled, and carried far fewer people. It think it made little difference. Nationalised water in Scotland is no better than privatised in England and Wales, and has a higher rate of sewer leaks: https://theferret.scot/scotland-behind-england-sewage-leaks/ https://theferret.scot/scotland-behind-england-sewage-leaks/

teamonkey 1y ago
From the same site: https://theferret.scot/water-pollution-scotland-england-mostly-false/ https://theferret.scot/water-pollution-scotland-england-most... One thing of note about Scotland is that water is free (i.e. paid for by taxes) there.
- arethuza 1y ago
  It's not free - there are explicit charges for it attached to our council taxes?
  - teamonkey 1y ago
    I literally said “I.e. paid for by taxes” :) But it’s unmetered, unlike most of the UK, and, as the other poster mentioned, cheaper.
    - arethuza 1y ago
      Nitpick: "Water and waste water charges are set by Scottish Water and billed alongside council tax." They aren't a tax themselves. https://www.fife.gov.uk/kb/docs/articles/housing/council-tax/council-tax-bands-and-charges https://www.fife.gov.uk/kb/docs/articles/housing/council-tax...
    - graemep 1y ago
      Unmetered water is still common in the rest of the UK. There is a gradual move to metering. I think there is a good argument for metering water - it provides an incentive not to waste it, and potable water is expensive to supply and has a significant environmental impact. It does need to be affordable even to people on the lowest incomes though.
- JetSetWilly 1y ago
  It isn't free but it is less expensive. In fact in Scotland the annual water bill averages to £490 compared to £603 in England. This is despite a lower population density (which means more infra required per person comparatively). So despite the best efforts of critics, they can't really show that Scottish water is any worse in terms of sewage outflows etc - if anything it is marginally better on that metric, and significantly cheaper to run. And the actual water quality is good, although that has a lot to do with incidental geography. Why would I want it privatised?
  - teamonkey 1y ago
    I fully agree. Moreover, it’s clear that Scottish Water actually has (if slowly) moved towards improving infrastructure and sewerage monitoring since that 2021 post I replied to, unlike a number of English water companies.

graemep 1y ago

I entirely agree with you about ideological thinking. We need a pragmatic approach, and a willingness to think through complex problems.

mr_toad 1y ago

The privatisations that go bad are usually monopolistic.