> > I don’t mean to direct this entirely at you > I don't buy this. "Get help" is a well-known gaslighting tactic used by abusers to discredit their target. It

> > I don’t mean to direct this entirely at you > I don't buy this. "Get help" is a well-known gaslighting tactic used by abusers to discredit their target. It does not make sense in a "generic" sense. Get help in your pursuit of justice, ideally with the help of law enforcement. If not, from a neutral third party. If not still, then from a trusted friend or family member. You can't go it alone, as then it's just your word against theirs if the shit hits the fan, and if you can foresee issues beforehand, you ought to plan to not lose your freedom, which is a distinct possibility when engaging in self-help outside or even in accordance with the justice system. If you don't, and things go sideways, now you have 2+ problems. I mean you as much as anyone who reads this, as my advice is applicable to whoever reads this, and it is not personal to you. However, I think you especially could benefit from taking it to heart. > People seem to get uncomfortable when talking about killing so let's talk about stealing instead. Let's not, because that's moving the goalposts. I'm not uncomfortable talking about killing or death generally. I've seen people die, and I have rendered life-saving aid to avert certain death, both to folks who were innocent, and to folks who have done me harm in anger without cause or forewarning. Ironically, the person who did me no wrong died despite my best efforts, and the one who wronged me lived, perhaps only because I saved their life. I shared a drink with the blameless person, only for them to overindulge after I refused to drink further with them. They laid down in the recovery position in the next room, and were checked on multiple times, but not frequently enough to save them from themselves. They aspirated in their sleep, and even with CPR performed and paramedics arriving within moments, my roommate and I couldn't bring them out of it. The person who did me wrong struck me out of nowhere after drinking a pint of vodka. I shared a room with this person, and I told them to stop, they didn't, and then they tried to kick me out of my own room and started a ground and pound on top of me. I escaped and put them in a sleeper hold because they would not stop actively attacking me. They went limp, and I immediately stopped and checked their pulse, which was strong, and checked their breathing, which was not at all. I performed CPR and they came back around. I had already dialed 911 on my phone, and my finger was hovering over the call button. I was seconds away from getting help, because they did not deserve to die over their own demons. They had seen a different person die suddenly right in front of them in a freak gun discharge incident when being dumb with a gun that they thought wasn't loaded, and the person who attacked me developed alcohol abuse issues as a result. I may have been right to defend myself, but I would have missed out on all of the neutral and positive interactions I had with them afterwards, and I might have had legal issues if I had failed in my efforts to revive them after they stopped breathing, despite being well within my rights to do what I did. I didn't want that. They were my friend, even when their wrong. That's what friends are for, to tell them they're wrong and to save them from themselves. It's not for you to say that I ought to want that for them or for me. I'm true to my own sense of morality, and I expect you are too. I just find our moral sensibilities incompatible. I don't think you know what you're talking about, because you don't speak as if you have been in a situation in which you have to make the kinds of decisions of which you speak. Maybe you have. Either way, it's fine to speak hypothetically, but I am not speaking hypothetically when I say that you don't want to be put in that situation for no (good) reason, and especially not for bad reasons. Please don't take this personally. I am not personally sure why you care so much about this issue, but I think I have nothing more I can add to this exchange, so I wish you well in your endeavors. Hate can't drive out hate, only love can do that. Let us beat swords into ploughshares. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_to_ploughshares https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swords_to_ploughshares