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What the article doesn't mention but the store's website https://tot-go12.com/ https://tot-go12.com/ does is that you need to pass through facial recognition to

by yorwba 1y ago

What the article doesn't mention but the store's website https://tot-go12.com/ https://tot-go12.com/ does is that you need to pass through facial recognition to enter the store and there are multiple cameras tracking whether you try to leave without paying. (Maybe like Amazon Checkout where there's humans continuously monitoring the video feed.) "High trust society" or not, you need some minimum level of security to avoid becoming a honeypot for all the less-trustworthy individuals that exist in any society. Maybe the highest trust here is in the police actually showing up and doing something about it when they report a theft.

bapak 1y ago
> the police actually showing up and doing something about it when they report a theft. That and this whole concept can only happen in places with low criminality. In Thailand I occasionally find small shops that have a CCTV and that's it (but the total value of goods on display likely does not exceed $100)
- madaxe_again 1y ago
  Or just the insurers paying up because the police provided a crime number. This is how it works in the U.K. - everyone has cctv, not because it prevents theft or allows the police to investigate, but rather because it allows you insurance coverage for any losses.
  - Anonbrit 1y ago
    If insurance became expensive enough (and logically the price must continue to rise as claims increase) then there will be a financial advantage for companies to design their shops not to need such insurance
- socalgal2 1y ago
  I wonder what does it take to get a society to have low criminality. IIUC Japan wasn't always this way. Could other societies become high trust? Singapore is. It wasn't always
  - Tade0 1y ago
    If self-checkout stores[0] are a measure of being such a place: Ageing of society. I've read last year's statistics about my country's criminality and two things stand out: 1. It's half what it was 20 years ago. 2. The largest group of perpetrators are people in their mid 30s, not 17-20yo like it was two decades ago and they focus on online fraud, not actually going places to commit crimes. [0] Specifically corner shops with a self-checkout machine and just one person behind the non-self checkout counter who wouldn't be able to react anyway should anyone leave with the goods.
  - rayiner 1y ago
    Singapore was very deliberate and quite heavy handed in bringing that about: https://paulbacon.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/zakaria_lee.pdf https://paulbacon.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/z...
rjh29 1y ago
There are plenty of unmanned frozen food shops (gyoza etc.) with one CCTV. On the rare occasion that someone steals food, it is taken seriously and investigated. People have been arrested here for grabbing a medium combini coffee cup and using it to serve a large coffee.
- pelagicAustral 1y ago
  I know this is besides the point, incredibly petty and borderline psychotic, but... if you can fill your medium cup with the amount of a large one, wouldn't that mean that the store is the one cheating on you? The way this is playing in my head is: I grab the medium cup, try to outsmart the universe and pour a large into it, coffee overflows in my hand, and I watch justice being served as my hand gets burn and I cannot scream because that would denounce my scam.
- skissane 1y ago
  Junior high principal in Hyogo fired for stealing seven half cups of coffee [Feb. 3, 2024] https://japantoday.com/category/national/junior-high-principal-in-hyogo-fired-for-stealing-seven-half-cups-of-coffee https://japantoday.com/category/national/junior-high-princip...
  - traceroute66 1y ago
    "Seven cups" ? i.e. a repeat offence ? I'm not sure there's any scope for debate here really, surely its all a bit beyond beyond "it was an accident, Officer" at that stage ?
- rayiner 1y ago
  > People have been arrested here for grabbing a medium combini coffee cup and using it to serve a large coffee. God I love Japan. Studies show that the most important thing about criminal punishment is certainty of being caught and prosecuted.
  - HeavyStorm 1y ago
    > Studies show that the most important thing about criminal punishment is certainty of being caught and prosecuted. This might lead someone to wrongly conclude that high order societies are a matter of policing. It's not. It's a matter of culture. Japan doesn't have more cops per citizen than your average 1st world country. But they do have a culture that deeply condemns crime and values honor.
RataNova 1y ago
Pure honor systems don't scale well in cities, even in Japan
coldtea 1y ago
Doesn't matter that they have cameras on top to monitor etc - it's still a high true, high order society that enables it. Sn Francisco super markets on the other hand (and increasingly everywhere else), have to lock cheeses and baby formulas
traceroute66 1y ago
> you need to pass through facial recognition to enter the store and there are multiple cameras tracking whether you try to leave without paying. Totally irrelevant point. Walk into any supermarket in a Western country these days. The place is crawling in CCTV. The packets of steak and other "expensive" stuff have RFID anti-theft tags on them. The self-service checkouts have close-up CCTV and anti-theft weight comparison systems. Many even employ security contractors to stand by the door. Does it prevent thefts ? Does it hell. The scumbag steals the goods and says F** Y** to the security guard on the way out. By the time the police get there (if they can even be bothered to turn up for such a minor crime) its too late. So yes, I am with the original blog. CCTV or not, the sort of thing shown in the blog could only happen in Japan.
- rayiner 1y ago
  It’s because, in the U.S., nobody will bother to look at the CCTV to catch the perpetrator. Or even if they do, the court will release them because it’s a non-violent offense. The most important deterrent in criminal justice is the certainty that conduct will be punished.

by yorwba 1y ago

bapak 1y ago

> the police actually showing up and doing something about it when they report a theft. That and this whole concept can only happen in places with low criminality. In Thailand I occasionally find small shops that have a CCTV and that's it (but the total value of goods on display likely does not exceed $100)

madaxe_again 1y ago
Or just the insurers paying up because the police provided a crime number. This is how it works in the U.K. - everyone has cctv, not because it prevents theft or allows the police to investigate, but rather because it allows you insurance coverage for any losses.
- Anonbrit 1y ago
  If insurance became expensive enough (and logically the price must continue to rise as claims increase) then there will be a financial advantage for companies to design their shops not to need such insurance
socalgal2 1y ago
I wonder what does it take to get a society to have low criminality. IIUC Japan wasn't always this way. Could other societies become high trust? Singapore is. It wasn't always
- Tade0 1y ago
  If self-checkout stores[0] are a measure of being such a place: Ageing of society. I've read last year's statistics about my country's criminality and two things stand out: 1. It's half what it was 20 years ago. 2. The largest group of perpetrators are people in their mid 30s, not 17-20yo like it was two decades ago and they focus on online fraud, not actually going places to commit crimes. [0] Specifically corner shops with a self-checkout machine and just one person behind the non-self checkout counter who wouldn't be able to react anyway should anyone leave with the goods.
- rayiner 1y ago
  Singapore was very deliberate and quite heavy handed in bringing that about: https://paulbacon.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/zakaria_lee.pdf https://paulbacon.wordpress.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/z...

rjh29 1y ago

There are plenty of unmanned frozen food shops (gyoza etc.) with one CCTV. On the rare occasion that someone steals food, it is taken seriously and investigated. People have been arrested here for grabbing a medium combini coffee cup and using it to serve a large coffee.

pelagicAustral 1y ago
I know this is besides the point, incredibly petty and borderline psychotic, but... if you can fill your medium cup with the amount of a large one, wouldn't that mean that the store is the one cheating on you? The way this is playing in my head is: I grab the medium cup, try to outsmart the universe and pour a large into it, coffee overflows in my hand, and I watch justice being served as my hand gets burn and I cannot scream because that would denounce my scam.
skissane 1y ago
Junior high principal in Hyogo fired for stealing seven half cups of coffee [Feb. 3, 2024] https://japantoday.com/category/national/junior-high-principal-in-hyogo-fired-for-stealing-seven-half-cups-of-coffee https://japantoday.com/category/national/junior-high-princip...
- traceroute66 1y ago
  "Seven cups" ? i.e. a repeat offence ? I'm not sure there's any scope for debate here really, surely its all a bit beyond beyond "it was an accident, Officer" at that stage ?
rayiner 1y ago
> People have been arrested here for grabbing a medium combini coffee cup and using it to serve a large coffee. God I love Japan. Studies show that the most important thing about criminal punishment is certainty of being caught and prosecuted.
- HeavyStorm 1y ago
  > Studies show that the most important thing about criminal punishment is certainty of being caught and prosecuted. This might lead someone to wrongly conclude that high order societies are a matter of policing. It's not. It's a matter of culture. Japan doesn't have more cops per citizen than your average 1st world country. But they do have a culture that deeply condemns crime and values honor.

RataNova 1y ago

Pure honor systems don't scale well in cities, even in Japan

coldtea 1y ago

Doesn't matter that they have cameras on top to monitor etc - it's still a high true, high order society that enables it. Sn Francisco super markets on the other hand (and increasingly everywhere else), have to lock cheeses and baby formulas

traceroute66 1y ago

> you need to pass through facial recognition to enter the store and there are multiple cameras tracking whether you try to leave without paying. Totally irrelevant point. Walk into any supermarket in a Western country these days. The place is crawling in CCTV. The packets of steak and other "expensive" stuff have RFID anti-theft tags on them. The self-service checkouts have close-up CCTV and anti-theft weight comparison systems. Many even employ security contractors to stand by the door. Does it prevent thefts ? Does it hell. The scumbag steals the goods and says F** Y** to the security guard on the way out. By the time the police get there (if they can even be bothered to turn up for such a minor crime) its too late. So yes, I am with the original blog. CCTV or not, the sort of thing shown in the blog could only happen in Japan.

rayiner 1y ago
It’s because, in the U.S., nobody will bother to look at the CCTV to catch the perpetrator. Or even if they do, the court will release them because it’s a non-violent offense. The most important deterrent in criminal justice is the certainty that conduct will be punished.