4 ms·

XFN – XHTML Friends Network (2003)

58 points by thinkingemote 1y ago

nashashmi 1y ago
I remember this being somewhat talked about in 2005. It was like an alternative to Friendster. But no one ever made a feature from this. Is this still a thing?
- deaddodo 1y ago
  It’s a barely hashed together spec for associating webpages. It doesn’t seem to offer any of the “value” that social networks do, the prime of which being an easy-to-initialize profile with copious features. It could be possible with nerds/geeks. However, that group (in the early 00s, at least) was far more interested in keeping their online anonymity prime and avoiding social networks; so I could totally see why it was dead in the water.
  - wwweston 1y ago
    > It doesn’t seem to offer any of the “value” that social networks do, the prime of which being an easy-to-initialize profile with copious features. It might be this is a feature, not a bug. Making things easy did help a lot of people connect in at the start, but connecting in the careless also has hazards, much less the content casino digital media has become.
    - deaddodo 1y ago
      Which goes into paragraph two, if you continued reading.
- riffraff 1y ago
  Around 2007 or so I worked on a semantic web search engine. Among other things it ingested xfn (and foaf) so you could reasonably look for things like the connection between you and someone else who had a webpage, but the whole thing by itself didn't replace in any way what social networks were already offering, e.g. your feed, or direct messaging. I think WordPress still supports xfn links, but it's not particularly useful.
  - mcdonje 1y ago
    >the whole thing by itself didn't replace in any way what social networks were already offering, e.g. your feed, or direct messaging. It didn't get to that point, but there's a lot that could be possible if the graph were owned by everyone instead of just the social network owners. Distributed trust, moderation, etc.
    - riffraff 1y ago
      Yeah that's always been the dream, but I'm afraid at this point I'm convinced noone wants that, because everyone just wants content to be consumed on their platform, not be available for everyone to reuse and remix on their own. That's imo the real reason semweb, microformats etc.. failed. We're left with a bit of schema.org that just plays into Google's SEO tactics.
  - skeezyboy 1y ago
    > what social networks were already offering, e.g. your feed, or direct messaging by social networks i assume you mean specifically facebook, twitter etc and not IRC or any of the other pre-existing social networks that simply didnt have profile pages or comments sections
- est 1y ago
  > Is this still a thing Today's webpages are mostly a big pile of javascript generated Single-Page-Application™ So no it's not a thing. The HTML is barely parsable.
ajxs 1y ago
This brings to mind FOAF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOAF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOAF
- hnbad 1y ago
  The early Web 2.0 era was still heavily riding the idea of the Semantic Web, which is why it saw the rise of a lot of metadata standards and "microformats". Most of these rapidly died when it became clear that there are stronger commercial incentives to abuse this data and falsify data (e.g. for "SEO", i.e. spam and false advertising) than there are social incentives to disclose this information and use it responsibly. It was a major clash between the idealistic vision of building global interconnected communities and the financial reality of companies wanting to optimize everything for their own profits. In other words, the reason we can't have the Semantic Web is the reason social media has become largely unusable (cf. Dead Internet Theory) and the reason Facebook first decided to push features that they knew made their users measurably unhappier (the introduction of the "social stream" home screen instead of having to visit each connection's "wall" to see what they've been up to massively drove up engagement and created advertisement opportunities but resulted in users experiencing an expectation to "perform" for their "audience" instead of "sharing" with "friends" like they had done before - downstream this has resulted in mental health crises especially amongst teenagers using image-heavy social media like Instagram dominated by influencers). I'd even go so far as to say that "social media" in its original sense died with the hopes of the Semantic Web and the end of the "blogosphere". At the time it was called "social" media because there was a perception of building actual 1-to-1 connections between individuals (even prior to "real name policies") and people would share unadulterated personal experiences with the understanding that they were sharing them in a globally distributed but ultimately highly specific niche (and often using several such niches for different topics which is why tag clouds and such became popular). The shift away from this to "walled gardens" and "social feeds" (rather than curated RSS feeds and blogrolls) allowed for "brand accounts" (the most famous example likely being Wendy's on Twitter) and eventually the widespread use of Mechanical Turks (i.e. people in low-wage countries being paid to drive up "engagement" and steer perception via fake comments) and eventual full automation or "bots". I guess FOAF stands out among others like XFN in that it's still seeing some use as a metadata standard because it defines vocabulary that remains useful outside its original intended purpose, surviving it.
drob518 1y ago
Dang, I was expecting a 1-900 phone number that would allow me to get my horoscope, sort of like the Psychic Friends Network from the 1990s, but in XML format.
8organicbits 1y ago
XFN is the origin of the rel=me attribute [1]. Rel-me adoption is growing in recent years, with Mastodon and others adopting it as a way to associate profile pages together [2]. Maybe two years ago, I added rel-me to a blogroll web crawler I'm building [3]. Unfortunately, theres a bunch of misuse, like people adding bidirectional rel-me to a company page which make it look like the whole company is one person. I don't think we'll see other attributes, if only because people are more privacy aware. XFN is like using Facebook but letting every web crawler harvest your social graph, instead of just Facebook. [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Reference/Attributes/rel/me https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Reference/... [2] https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/profile/#verification https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/profile/#verification [3] https://alexsci.com/rss-blogroll-network/discover/feed-de42fb3191ea10fce41059f6b4d937dd/ https://alexsci.com/rss-blogroll-network/discover/feed-de42f... (rel-me adds the checkmark here)

58 points by thinkingemote 1y ago

I remember this being somewhat talked about in 2005. It was like an alternative to Friendster. But no one ever made a feature from this. Is this still a thing?

deaddodo 1y ago
It’s a barely hashed together spec for associating webpages. It doesn’t seem to offer any of the “value” that social networks do, the prime of which being an easy-to-initialize profile with copious features. It could be possible with nerds/geeks. However, that group (in the early 00s, at least) was far more interested in keeping their online anonymity prime and avoiding social networks; so I could totally see why it was dead in the water.
- wwweston 1y ago
  > It doesn’t seem to offer any of the “value” that social networks do, the prime of which being an easy-to-initialize profile with copious features. It might be this is a feature, not a bug. Making things easy did help a lot of people connect in at the start, but connecting in the careless also has hazards, much less the content casino digital media has become.
  - deaddodo 1y ago
    Which goes into paragraph two, if you continued reading.
riffraff 1y ago
Around 2007 or so I worked on a semantic web search engine. Among other things it ingested xfn (and foaf) so you could reasonably look for things like the connection between you and someone else who had a webpage, but the whole thing by itself didn't replace in any way what social networks were already offering, e.g. your feed, or direct messaging. I think WordPress still supports xfn links, but it's not particularly useful.
- mcdonje 1y ago
  >the whole thing by itself didn't replace in any way what social networks were already offering, e.g. your feed, or direct messaging. It didn't get to that point, but there's a lot that could be possible if the graph were owned by everyone instead of just the social network owners. Distributed trust, moderation, etc.
  - riffraff 1y ago
    Yeah that's always been the dream, but I'm afraid at this point I'm convinced noone wants that, because everyone just wants content to be consumed on their platform, not be available for everyone to reuse and remix on their own. That's imo the real reason semweb, microformats etc.. failed. We're left with a bit of schema.org that just plays into Google's SEO tactics.
- skeezyboy 1y ago
  > what social networks were already offering, e.g. your feed, or direct messaging by social networks i assume you mean specifically facebook, twitter etc and not IRC or any of the other pre-existing social networks that simply didnt have profile pages or comments sections
est 1y ago
> Is this still a thing Today's webpages are mostly a big pile of javascript generated Single-Page-Application™ So no it's not a thing. The HTML is barely parsable.

ajxs 1y ago

This brings to mind FOAF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOAF https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FOAF

hnbad 1y ago
The early Web 2.0 era was still heavily riding the idea of the Semantic Web, which is why it saw the rise of a lot of metadata standards and "microformats". Most of these rapidly died when it became clear that there are stronger commercial incentives to abuse this data and falsify data (e.g. for "SEO", i.e. spam and false advertising) than there are social incentives to disclose this information and use it responsibly. It was a major clash between the idealistic vision of building global interconnected communities and the financial reality of companies wanting to optimize everything for their own profits. In other words, the reason we can't have the Semantic Web is the reason social media has become largely unusable (cf. Dead Internet Theory) and the reason Facebook first decided to push features that they knew made their users measurably unhappier (the introduction of the "social stream" home screen instead of having to visit each connection's "wall" to see what they've been up to massively drove up engagement and created advertisement opportunities but resulted in users experiencing an expectation to "perform" for their "audience" instead of "sharing" with "friends" like they had done before - downstream this has resulted in mental health crises especially amongst teenagers using image-heavy social media like Instagram dominated by influencers). I'd even go so far as to say that "social media" in its original sense died with the hopes of the Semantic Web and the end of the "blogosphere". At the time it was called "social" media because there was a perception of building actual 1-to-1 connections between individuals (even prior to "real name policies") and people would share unadulterated personal experiences with the understanding that they were sharing them in a globally distributed but ultimately highly specific niche (and often using several such niches for different topics which is why tag clouds and such became popular). The shift away from this to "walled gardens" and "social feeds" (rather than curated RSS feeds and blogrolls) allowed for "brand accounts" (the most famous example likely being Wendy's on Twitter) and eventually the widespread use of Mechanical Turks (i.e. people in low-wage countries being paid to drive up "engagement" and steer perception via fake comments) and eventual full automation or "bots". I guess FOAF stands out among others like XFN in that it's still seeing some use as a metadata standard because it defines vocabulary that remains useful outside its original intended purpose, surviving it.

drob518 1y ago

Dang, I was expecting a 1-900 phone number that would allow me to get my horoscope, sort of like the Psychic Friends Network from the 1990s, but in XML format.

8organicbits 1y ago

XFN is the origin of the rel=me attribute [1]. Rel-me adoption is growing in recent years, with Mastodon and others adopting it as a way to associate profile pages together [2]. Maybe two years ago, I added rel-me to a blogroll web crawler I'm building [3]. Unfortunately, theres a bunch of misuse, like people adding bidirectional rel-me to a company page which make it look like the whole company is one person. I don't think we'll see other attributes, if only because people are more privacy aware. XFN is like using Facebook but letting every web crawler harvest your social graph, instead of just Facebook. [1] https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Reference/Attributes/rel/me https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Reference/... [2] https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/profile/#verification https://docs.joinmastodon.org/user/profile/#verification [3] https://alexsci.com/rss-blogroll-network/discover/feed-de42fb3191ea10fce41059f6b4d937dd/ https://alexsci.com/rss-blogroll-network/discover/feed-de42f... (rel-me adds the checkmark here)